Proceedings of the Standing Joint Committee for the
Scrutiny of Regulations

Issue 1 - Evidence, October 21, 2004

OTTAWA, Thursday, October 21, 2004

The Standing Joint Committee of the Senate and the House of Commons for the Scrutiny of Regulations met this day at 9:07 a.m. to organize the activities of the committee.

[English]

Mr. François Michaud, Joint Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators as joint clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of a joint chair representing the Senate. I stand ready to receive nominations.

Senator Moore: I nominate Senator John Bryden.

Senator Nolin: I second the nomination.

Mr. Michaud: Are there other nominations? It is moved by Senator Moore that Senator Bryden be joint chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure to adopt the motion?

Hon. Members: Agreed.

Mr. Michaud: I will now ask the joint clerk from the House of Commons to preside over the election of the other joint chair.

Mr. Jean-François Lafleur, Joint Clerk of the Committee: I stand ready to receive nominations for joint chair of the committee representing the House of Commons.

Mr. Anders: I nominate Mr. Gurmant Grewal.

Mr. Lafleur: Are there any other nominations? Seeing none, Mr. Grewal is elected the joint chair of the committee.

I would ask the joint chairs to take their seats, please.

Senator John G. Bryden (Joint Chairman) in the chair.

Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Joint Chairman) in the chair.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): I thank Senators Moore and Nolin. I have enjoyed working on this committee and I am acquainted with a number of its members.

The next business, I believe, deals with the balance of the representation from the House of Commons, and so I turn the meeting over to Mr. Grewal.

The Joint Chairman (Mr. Grewal): Good morning. Let me also take the opportunity to thank my nominator and members of the committee. Welcome to new members and returning members; and congratulations to my joint chair.

We will begin with the next item, the election of two deputy chairmen, one from the government side and the other from the official opposition as per the standing order. I am now ready to receive a nomination for deputy chairman from the government side. Is there a motion?

Mr. Carr: I nominate Mr. Lynn Myers.

Mr. Macklin: I second the nomination.

The Joint Chairman (Mr. Grewal): Are there other nominations? Seeing none, I declare the motion carried. Mr. Lynn Myers is vice-chair from the government side.

I will now receive nominations for vice-chair from a party other than the official opposition. Is there a motion?

[Translation]

Mr. Bouchard: I would like to nominate Ms. Monique Guay as deputy chairman.

[English]

The Joint Chairman (Mr. Grewal): Are there any other nominations? Seeing none, the motion is carried; Ms. Monique Guay is vice-chair.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): Next, we need a motion that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the joint chairs, the vice-chairs, one member from the other party in the Senate and one member from the other opposition party in the House of Commons; and that the subcommittee report its decisions to the committee. Do I have a mover?

Senator Nolin: I so move.

Senator Moore: I second the motion.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): All in favour?

Hon. Members: Agreed.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): Are we agreed that the committee's proceedings be printed?

Hon. Members: Agreed.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): We need to authorize the committee's general counsel to review the unrevised transcripts of the proceedings of the committee before they are printed. Agreed?

Hon. Members: Agreed.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): I need a motion for the first report of the committee.

Mr. Myers: I so move.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): All in favour?

Hon. Members: Agreed.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): Having indicated that the report will go forward, I have a couple of points to raise.

A section in the report indicates that once reformed, as we are now, the quorum for doing business and taking votes is four. For receiving evidence and other routine matters, the quorum is three. We have a large committee but sometimes the numbers are few. That will be reported. I could read the rest of this but it is basically standard and derives from the statutory regulations that have been in place.

The House of Commons committee members have the right to sit when the House of Commons is sitting and when it is in adjournment. The Senate members do not have that right. This report contains this recommendation:

Your committee further recommends to the Senate that it be empowered to sit during sittings and adjournments of the Senate.

I will present this recommendation and make the case for it. I hope to have support, but if I do not we will have to make an amendment to this. If we do not receive support, I feel confident that any time an emergency arises I will have authorization. Therefore, we may end up with authorization on a case-by-case basis.

Next on our agenda is the expenditures for last year. The Senate's portion was $598. We take one third and the Commons takes the balance. We are not big spenders on this committee.

That report will go forward.

Number 8 on our list is the authorization for expenditures. We need a motion that either joint chairs or, in accordance with the direction of the joint chairs, either joint clerk be authorized to approve payment of expenditures of the committee.

Moved, seconded. Agreed?

Hon. Members: Agreed.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): Next we have travelling and living expenses of witnesses. We need a motion that indicates that, at the discretion of the joint chairs, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization, and payment will take place upon application, but that the joint chairs be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.

Moved, seconded. Agreed?

Hon. Members: Agreed.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): We usually do not have to bring in outside witnesses. We need a motion to say that the electronic media coverage is authorized provided it does not unduly interfere with the operation of the committee.

Moved, seconded. Agreed?

Hon. Members: Agreed.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): The last item is the scheduling of meetings. We need a motion that the committee adopt the following schedule for its meetings, subject to the adoption by both Houses of the committee's first report; that 8:30 a.m. on Thursday, November 4, would be our next meeting; and that until the end of this year, the meetings would be at 8:30 a.m. on Thursday, November 4, 8:30 a.m. on Thursday, November 18, 8:30 a.m. on Thursday, December 2, and 8:30 a.m. on Thursday, December 16 — every second week.

Senator Nolin: Is it usual to vote on the date? What happens if a problem arises? Do we not want our steering committee to have the authority to change the date? Certainly it is the decision of the joint chairs, and if you wish, we will vote on it.

[Translation]

Ms. Guay: We can always call an emergency meeting if a pressing situation were to arise. This committee usually meets every two weeks, on Thursday morning at 8:30 a.m. However, in cases of emergency, it is possible to rapidly convene a meeting in order to solve a specific problem.

Senator Nolin: I do not advise you to vote on this point. All you have to do is let the steering committee make this decision. Those dates may be respected; however, it would be good to leave some leeway.

[English]

Is it compulsory to vote on that?

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): Let me suggest that we handle it in this fashion: We will not include the dates in the report but we will give members notice that, unless something changes drastically, those likely will be the dates between now and the end of the year.

Mr. Myers: That is excellent.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): As they say around some board meetings, you can pencil it into your agenda.

Senator Moore: Was that passed?

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): Yes, we adopted it. We have one other item, the distribution of the budget, which I will speak to briefly. As you know, the budget for this committee is divided, in that one third goes to the Senate and two thirds to the House of Commons. The total is as follows: Professional and other services for $7,800; transportation and communications for $5,500; and miscellaneous for $7,500. The total is $20,800. If need be, we can come back and get more. In normal practice, we would not even come close to spending what is in this budget. It is adequate from historical perspective.

Moved and seconded. Agreed?

Hon. Members: Agreed.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): Unless someone has some pressing business, I would entertain a motion for adjournment.

Mr. Myers: I move adjournment.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): Are there questions?

[Translation]

Ms. Guay: I would like the joint clerk of the committee to be authorized to distribute documents to the members of the committee only when those documents are in both official languages. I did not see that motion in the document you gave to us. I think it is important that we be able to work in our respective languages.

[English]

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): That is standard procedure in the Senate and Senate, committees and I believe it applies to this committee as well.

[Translation]

Ms. Guay: So this guideline should be recorded officially in the motions document.

Mr. François-R. Bernier, Senior Legal Counsel of the Committee: This is already the practice that is normally followed by the committee, in compliance with the committee's policies. However, it can happen, as has happened in the past, that the committee is entrusted with an urgent matter.

Ms. Guay: When that situation arises, it will be up to the committee to decide whether or not to authorize the tabling of such a document. In any case, I would like that guideline to be recorded in the motion.

[English]

Mr. Bernier: That is the case. Sometimes we have had a minister's reply come in by fax at 5 p.m. or 6 p.m. of the day before the meeting, or even the morning of the meeting. The fax may not be available in both languages and so we would hold off circulating until the committee has decided it can be distributed even in one language.

[Translation]

Ms. Guay: All we have to do is ask the committee for a special permission if there is an emergency. We are, of course, intelligent people and we can adjust to situations. However, I would like this guideline to be officially recorded in the motion.

[English]

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): Would you like to make such a motion? I could frame it —

[Translation]

Ms. Guay: Would you like me to read it?

[English]

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): Yes, please.

[Translation]

Ms. Guay: I move that the clerk of the committee be authorized to distribute to the members of the committee documents only when they exist in both official languages, and that no document from a witness be distributed without the clerk's approval. This is indeed a motion that many other committees have passed.

[English]

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): Would you add, from our conversation, that any exception to this would be determined by the committee?

[Translation]

Ms. Guay: That addition is not necessary, as we will discuss it if the situation arises. When an urgent document is submitted to us, the deputy chairman will let us know and we will debate the matter. Thus, it is not necessary to include the exception in the motion.

[English]

Mr. Anders: I will speak briefly to the motion. Everything we have received today is translated, and that is not a problem. My concern is that this can be a powerful committee if it chooses to exercise its muscle. If we have witnesses before us who happen, at the last minute, to provide a document in one language, and we are stressed with regard to the ability to translate the document, then it holds up the ability for them to effectively present. I understand the motivation of the member, but I do not know if it serves —

Senator Nolin: That is why we will have exceptions.

Mr. Anders: It is not in the motion. If she were willing to accept exceptions, she would have it in the motion.

Senator Nolin: We could have an exception in the motion that would cover extraordinary occurrences.

[Translation]

Do you have a problem with that?

Ms. Guay: As I mentioned, there is no point in adding that exception to the motion, because if a document is submitted to us, the deputy chairman will have to let us know and we will in any case have to make a decision. Even if that provision were included, we could still set it aside.

We ask that the document, to the extent that that is possible, be produced in both official languages. We have an excellent translation service. Consequently, there is no reason for documents not to be presented in both official languages.

[English]

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): If I may add something, we have a current practice on the distribution of documents as follows: That clerk of the committee be authorized to distribute to the members of the committee documents only when they exist in both official languages and that no document from a witness be distributed without the committee approval.

[Translation]

Ms. Guay: The paragraph says: ``Without the committee approval.'' If the committee decides that the situation is urgent and that the document must be distributed as is, we will do so. You don't need to add anything else. The committee will decide.

[English]

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): It is my understanding of House of Commons committees that it is the practice to adopt a motion such as this. If the motion is worded exactly like this, are you happy?

[Translation]

Ms. Guay: Yes.

[English]

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): You take the position that the committee can make the rule.

Mr. Anders: Proceed with the committee's wishes. I only hope that it does not thwart our ability to bring witnesses in on time.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): I have one other comment.

[Translation]

Ms. Guay: This will not prevent them from testifying.

[English]

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): We have had situations in other committees where someone has a document to be presented and instead of simply presenting the document most of them can be read into the record. The result is that both languages are in the official record although only the English or the French document was presented. That happens when the document is simply read into the record. We can always get around it that way.

[Translation]

Ms. Guay: This does not change anything; our witnesses can still make their presentation in the language of their choice. We have the benefit of simultaneous interpretation and the documents will be translated and distributed later.

[English]

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): That is exactly my point.

[Translation]

Ms. Guay: In fact, that motion is adopted in most committees.

[English]

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): It is my understanding that this motion, worded in such a way, is acceptable to members of this committee.

[Translation]

Ms. Guay: Yes, thank you.

[English]

Hon. Members: Agreed.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Bryden): Is there any other business before the committee? I declare the meeting adjourned.

The committee adjourned.