LANG Committee Meeting

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON OFFICIAL LANGUAGES

COMITÉ MIXTE PERMANENT DES LANGUES OFFICIELLES

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Monday, October 29, 2001

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[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa-Vanier, Lib.)): Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this meeting of the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages, a committee of the House and Senate.

We have with us today representatives of three unions at Air Canada. Welcome, gentlemen.

The purpose of our current study is to try to understand why the Canadian travelling public seems to be having so much trouble getting service in the country's two official languages, so that we can suggest some solutions if possible. We have heard a number of complaints and a variety of testimony. We therefore thought it might be useful to hear from the union representatives, both as regards their ability to work in their own language at Air Canada and as regards service to the public, both on the ground and in the air.

I will ask each of our witnesses to identify himself and to give the name of the union he represents. You have about ten minutes to make a presentation, and then there will be a question and answer period for committee members from both sides. All right? No questions? Do you understand everything, Mr. Fane?

Mr. Gary Fane (Transportation Director, National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation and General Workers Union of Canada (CAW-Canada)): Yes, thank you.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Who would like to begin? We will begin by hearing from the witnesses.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier (Ontario, Lib.): I would like to know who they are.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): I asked them to introduce themselves. Would you like to begin, Mr. Beaulieu?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu (President, Montreal Regional Council, Air Canada Pilots Association): Certainly.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Go ahead. Then we will give the floor to this gentleman, and then to Mr. Fane. Is that all right?

Mr. Beaulieu.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: I took the time to prepare a little presentation. I am First Officer Serge Beaulieu and I am the President of the local executive of the Air Canada Pilots Association. With me is Captain Yvan Robichaud, who is based in Montreal. I am also the national spokesperson for the Pilots Association.

I would like to start by thanking the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages for giving me this opportunity to make this brief presentation.

At the moment, Air Canada has fewer than 300 francophone pilots, which accounts for slightly less than 8% of the 3,500 men and women who are pilots throughout the country.

Before the merger with Canadian Airlines International, the ratio at Air Canada was 15.8% or 16%. Since the merger, the ratio has dropped to 8%. These figures contradict the statements made by Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci, the ombudsman and Senior Director of Employment Equity and Linguistic Affairs at Air Canada. She said that there is no under-representation of francophones among Air Canada's pilots. I read this in your interim report.

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For several years now, francophone pilots and the Pilots Association have been making representations to the management of Air Canada requesting compliance with the Official Languages Act and a hiring policy more in keeping with the makeup of the Canadian population.

We did take quite a gentle approach. We tried to point out that with similar technical qualifications—we are not talking here about affirmative action, but rather about merit—a bilingual francophone pilot should be considered more qualified than a unilingual pilot. This is a tested method with which I have lived for the 15 years that I spent at the Department of Defence. People were judged on their qualifications, including their linguistic qualifications.

Our efforts almost proved fruitful in 1997, when an agreement in principle with the vice-president of the day, Mr. Wayne MacLellan, suggested that qualified, competitive francophone pilots be hired at a faster rate until they made up approximately 25% of the total number of pilots. This figure would be in keeping with the composition of the population of Canada.

We have distributed English and French copies of this agreement in principle, which was not followed.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Just a moment, please. We want to locate the documents to which you are referring.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: It is this document, entitled in English: Flight Operations Hiring Policy, which was supposed to be part of Air Canada's hiring policy book, which sets out all of the company's policies. The French translation is on page 2.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: Because of internal pressure, Air Canada refused at the last minute to implement these new directives, and since then has turned a deaf ear to our demands. Since that time, one argument that the company uses to justify the under-representation is the shortage of qualified francophone candidates, from Manitoba, Alberta, Quebec or wherever. We totally disagree with this point.

In Quebec alone, we have the Centre québécois de formation aéronautique [Quebec centre for aeronautical training] at the CEGEP in Chicoutimi. Each year, 25 students obtain a college diploma following a three-year program, which is the equivalent of programs offered in recognized institutions in Ontario and Alberta. These candidates have been available for about 30 years now. They work in aviation, either at Air Canada, with the army, or at Air Transat or Canada 3000. In addition, there are the pilots who took their training at their own expense in various schools throughout Canada and the military pilots, like myself, who took their pilot training in government schools. So there is a considerable number of qualified people available.

During the last hiring period, from 1995 to 2000, over 1,000 pilots were hired. Let us take the example of InterCanadian. I believe 1,162 pilots were hired, approximately. During this hiring period, when InterCanadian closed down, it laid off 150 qualified pilots. They were pilots of jets, turbo jets, propeller aircraft, ATR-42s and so on. That is, 150 highly qualified pilots, with experience flying in northern Quebec in ice, snow, crosswinds, cold nights, and so on, were laid off. Of all these candidates who applied for jobs, not even ten were hired. The company always found a reason: the person was too tall, too short, had eyes that were too blue, and so on. They always came up with a reason to tell us that these people were not qualified.

The company is at least consistent in its approach, particularly as regards respect for the official languages. Let me give you the list of senior officers for flight operations. They are all pilots. There is one French name at the bottom of the list. He is a junior manager, Mr. Mario Guillemette. All the others are anglophones, although there are francophones with BAs and MAs, aviation experts and engineers, who attended military college, like myself, or some other institution.

In our opinion, if there were a more equitable representation of francophones among Air Canada's pilots, this would be reflected at the senior level of the company. I would point out that the Executive Vice-President, Mr. Rob Giguère, has a French name, but unfortunately, that is all.

In conclusion, it seems very clear that Air Canada is consciously refusing to comply with the Official Languages Act, with which it is supposed to comply. Whatever approach we adopt—co-operative, nice, "can we work together?"—Air Canada always finds an excuse not to live up to its commitments. In this case, we are talking about legal and institutional commitments.

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We agree with the report of the Commissioner of Official Languages, Ms. Dyane Adam, and we hope that in the near future, Air Canada will show more respect for its commitments and the law.

Thank you very much.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.

Mr. Udvarhelyi.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi (Union Representative, CUPE Section 4001- Air Canada, Canadian Union of Public Employees): Thank you and good afternoon. I represent Montreal flight attendants. There are approximately 1,000 attendants with CUPE, Section 4001 in Montreal, and 170 other individuals from the former Canadian Airlines, who should be joining us soon.

I am going to talk about the collective agreement and the lack of a collective agreement in French. We negotiated a collective agreement in July 1999. It took at least ten months to get the collective agreement printed in English and distributed. To this day, I have received no collective agreement in French.

Perhaps we need to go back into the past a little. In the past, there was nothing in the collective agreement forcing the company to print and distribute the collective agreement within a certain length of time. We were at the company's mercy with respect to printed copies of the collective agreement. Sometimes we got our copies just as the collective agreement was about to expire, perhaps after one or two years.

I have tabled copies of the exchange of correspondence between our president, Ms. Pamela Sachs, and the various Air Canada labour relations representatives, because they change about every four or five months. The main people involved were Ms. Debby Newman and Mr. Christopher Hallamore. Our right to a collective agreement in French was reduced to a dispute, a sort of grievance. I would like to quote what Mr. Hallamore said:

SUBJECT: Your response to reprint of collective agreement.

“We have received your letter and disagree with its contents. As such we will not be reprinting the collective agreement at this time.”

It goes on like that. There is another letter dated February 15.

“This letter is in response to the Union's most recent request for 6,000 copies of the collective agreement.

In light of the uncertainty surrounding the outcome of the proceedings being held by the CIRD related to last year's common employer declaration, the Company does not feel it is appropriate to issue a reprint at this time.”

French-speaking members come into the office, particularly from Montreal, and even some francophones based in Toronto, who are travelling through Montreal, ask me for a collective agreement in French, and I have nothing to give them.

Finally, the company had the 1996-98 collective agreement translated in the spring of 2001. As you can see, it is printed on 8 in. x 11 in. paper. It is not very handy to distribute such a document on an airplane. The plane needs more fuel.

Before, we were working with that version. I still had some French copies of the 1993 to 1996 collective agreement, but I only had about 15 or 20 left. Obviously, that was not enough for the 1,000 flight attendants in Montreal.

There are many francophone flight attendants in Toronto. I would say 20% to 30% of the flight attendants in Toronto are francophone. When they travel through Montreal, they think the Montreal office will have copies of the collective agreement in French. However, I do not have any.

So you can see the exchange of correspondence between people in Labour Relations and Ms. Sachs. In the last letter, dated March 12, we were told that they disagreed with our letter, and that is the end of the story. Since then, we have been so busy with the merger, seniority considerations, and so on, that we have somewhat neglected this matter, but members of our section did make some complaints to the Commissioner of Official Languages, Ms. Adam. That is where we are at.

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There is also the issue of training. The following are the programs for November in Montreal: quick course on defibrillators, in English only. We really do not have a choice. The training is offered in English only. There are annual upgrading programs on firefighting, and so on.

In the past there was pressure. Complaints were made by flight attendants and Air Canada was required to provide training in English or in French. But if you do not keep following the company closely, six months or a year later, then they just forget about it and we have to start our efforts all over again. We do not have a choice when it comes to training.

Last week there were lay-offs and the union signed an agreement on October 19, which was finalized on October 20, relating to work sharing to mitigate the effect of the lay-offs. We were given four days to make our decision and to sign. The deadline was the 26th. It was left in our pigeonholes on October 20, in English only. Of course there were people who were out of town for three, four or five days. They may be in Paris, London or elsewhere in Canada. Let's assume that they come back to Montreal on Wednesday and they discover these documents available only in English. They have up until Friday, that is 12 hours, to decide.

It's very complicated. There are lots of work-sharing programs. It's a ten-page document full of complicated clauses. It's something that you have to discuss with your family and ask lots of questions about. We had four or five days to digest all of this and try to explain it to people but there was nothing in French.

So that is how it is when it comes to the collective agreement and training. There are lots of shortcomings. There are also documents like this one on work sharing. We might have been able to save another 10 or 15 flight attendant jobs. Now they are all transferred to Toronto.

Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

[English]

Mr. Fane.

Mr. Gary Fane: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, Madam Chairperson, Mr. Co-Chairperson.

My name is Gary Fane, and I work for the Canadian Auto Workers Union, CAW Canada. We're the largest transportation union in the federal jurisdiction, and we have approximately 11,000 people who work at Air Canada and the Air Canada regionals. When I talk about the regionals, I'm talking about Air BC, Air Ontario, Air Nova, and Canadian regional airlines that have been combined into one regional airline. We represent people who serve the customers, passenger agents who, if you go to the airport, are there to help you, to make sure you have your ticket, you have your baggage checked—hopefully to the right place—and you get on and off airplanes safely and properly. We also represent the people who do the reservations. When you call Air Canada and book a reservation, it's our members who answer the telephone.

I'd like to paint you a picture of where, from the union's perspective, the company is in providing the official languages for our customers, the Canadian citizens. In our union we believe it is a right for the travelling public to be served in either language. It's not a privilege, it's a right. It's something the government has deemed to be the law, and we expect the employer to ensure that we have the tools to do that. Every day this law is violated. Every day customers end up being served by somebody who has not had the proper language training to serve the customer in the language of their choice.

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The situation was improving when Air Canada was owned by the government. It got a little worse after the privatization, and it has become much worse now that there's the merger of the two national carriers. I'm not blaming Air Canada management for that, but they took on Canadian Airlines, which did not have the same push for bilingualism. It was an airline that came out of western Canada and was run out of western Canada. Although we have employees from Canadian Airlines in Quebec and other provinces, the language clearly states that the customer should be served in the language of their choice, regardless of what city they're in. I say that because there are places, small places, all through British Columbia, Alberta, where there are no bilingual employees working. I know because I've represented these people for many years. I originally came from Canadian Airlines, so I know of the history and the culture there.

When we talk to the employer about improving the language training, they even tell us that the language training had been diminishing for Air Canada employees. So before you add the Canadian Airlines aspect to the situation, they tell you, no, we don't have that much money, or, we're not spending money on this, or, we only have so much money. If any of you are Air Canada shareholders, you'll know from November 1 that they have a lot less money, because they're getting ready to post a large loss for the third quarter.

We're hopeful that the government will give Air Canada a helping hand on fixing this problem. For example, six years ago employees would go off to do language training for six weeks. If you put up your hand and said, excuse me, I want to learn the other language, you would be sent off for language training. This would be anglophones learning how to speak French or francophones learning how to speak English. That doesn't happen any more. Now, if you're at level B, a secondary level, they will give you two days of training if they're not busy. If it's busy, the phones are ringing, your training will have to be postponed to another time. You all know that Air Canada's going through a difficult time now, but if it's not made a priority, it will not happen.

When we talk to the company about this issue, they say to us, in a fashion, you want to cooperate with us, because if the union pushes too hard on language training, it will upset seniority rights. And if you upset seniority rights, all your members will be angry. Well, I suggest to you that is not proper and that is not right, because if you trained every Canadian in the other language, seniority rights would be completely irrelevant.

We have an obligation to serve Canadians in either language. Our members complain to us daily. It's very embarrassing to have somebody you cannot take care of if your job is taking care of the public. If they can't do that, the member gets to feel inadequate, angry, because they can't do their job properly.

So it won't surprise you that we think the government has to be forceful with Air Canada on language training, to make sure that the travelling public has a choice, that in either language the people will be served equally. This is not an easy task, but our union believes there is an obligation that we must do this together. This is the national carrier. There is only one national carrier now. We've put the two of them together.

I'd like to just say too that there is a process going on right now at Air Canada where they're trying to figure out how many employees to lay off. According to our collective agreement, they're not allowed to lay off any CAW members. They all have job guarantees till the year 2004. It won't surprise you that the most recent hirings, in the last five years, have been of people who have both language skills. So that's a good thing. We're negotiating with the employer to put some financial packages together so that senior people can leave, and this will mean that the bilingual element will improve at Air Canada.

We don't have the same protection with the regional airlines, where we represent 1200 people, and the company is laying some of those people off. You know who they're laying off? The junior people. And if there are any bilingual people in those airlines, they are the junior people. So there the problem is compounded.

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The last thing, Madam Senator, we're hoping the government will take an active role in is ensuring that language training is not a priority the union has to fight over, but is a direction to both the union and the company that our job is to take care of the customers in either official language.

Thank you.

By the way, our collective agreements, for some strange reason, only come in one language also. Is that not shameful?

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Does anybody wish to add anything among our three witnesses?

[Translation]

If you have nothing to add, I will begin.

Mr. Sauvageau, you have to floor.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Gentlemen, I would like to extend a particular welcome to you. I am pleased to see you here today. I think I can say on behalf of everyone in the committee that we do appreciate the information you have conveyed to us.

Before asking my questions, I have two ideas I would like to share with you.

Mr. Beaulieu, you said that the figure was 8%. I will take your word for it. I do not have any problem with that. But I think that before we make a report, it might perhaps be a good idea for us to have a round table with the unions and Air Canada. I say this because I am afraid that we may prepare the report—and I think Mr. Gauthier will agree with me on this point—and it will not be implemented, that Air Canada will say that the unions were not justified in such and such a claim and the unions will say the same thing about Air Canada. At one point, in order to have precise figures, it may be necessary for us to meet the people involved. Then we can maybe start doing business. That is what I would like to see.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): If I may, Mr. Sauvageau, I would like to answer your question.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: It is a wish on my part.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): I imagine that in our report, when we get down to it, we will be able to make this recommendation to the government. We are able to demand a response. So it will certainly not come to naught.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Yes.

Now, to follow up on Mr. Beaulieu's comments, I would like to remind the clerk to call back the lady who came to testify, the ombudsman, Ms. ... I have been told she is referred to as MPI in her organization because her name is a hard one to remember. By the way, what is her name?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Her name is Michèle Perreault-Ieraci.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: That's it.

The committee asked Ms. Perreault-Ieraci to leave complaint forms on all the seats of Air Canada airplanes. She told us that she would send us a copy of this form. It might be useful to ask what follow-up has been taken on this request by the committee.

Let me now put my questions to our speakers.

In your opinion, Mr. Beaulieu, what is the explanation for the significant difference between the 8% and 25% figures? Where do your figures come from when you say that 8% of the pilots are francophones?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: We did our research using various approaches developed in our company. We consulted the list of recently hired people. For example, I consulted the list of those persons who were hired in the past two years. Out of the 425 pilots hired between January 1999 and January 2001, 60 were of francophone extraction, that is 14% of the pilots.

Because of the merger with Canadian Airlines, as Mr. Fane pointed out, there was some dilution because Canadian Airlines International Limited was a company based mainly in the West and was not subject to the Official Languages Act like Air Canada. So it must be admitted that there was a decrease for that reason. However, there were no short-term or medium-term efforts taken by the company to restore francophone representation to its previous level in Quebec and in Canada. So the figures we have were obtained by looking at the hiring lists and meeting people to find out whether they were of francophone extraction. The company provides us with absolutely no information on this point.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I see. You probably know that Treasury Board asked Air Canada to provide it with precise figures on the number of bilingual employees, for the Commissioner of Official Languages among others. For some years now—I do not have the exact figures with me—we have been told that there are approximately 30% of the employees whose language is not known. Do you think it would be easy for Air Canada... I suppose that your papers come from Air Canada and you did not invent them. Could we insist on having Air Canada provide us with specific figures, as was requested by Treasury Board, on the number of francophone, bilingual and unilingual employees for the Commissioner of Official Languages?

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Mr. Serge Beaulieu: Mr. Sauvageau, it's a fairly simple matter. Air Canada employees are all wage earners. Every month they receive an envelope with details about their income, their salary and so forth. In this envelope we could include an additional slip asking the employees whether they are francophones and what region they come from, for example Val-d'Or or somewhere else. There is nothing complicated about it. But is there any desire to find out? I rather doubt it. Can it be done easily? If I were the king, it would be a simple matter.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Thank you.

We have been told, although not publicly, that Air Canada employees were afraid of making complaints about the failure to respect the Official Languages Act. You represent three different unions. Has it ever come to your attention that employees have either been punished or sanctioned when it was discovered that they had made a complaint? Why was it said here in the committee that they were afraid of complaining? What would be the basis of this fear of making complaints on the part of Air Canada employees?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: As far as the pilots are concerned, the members of the association I represent, I am rather lucky because they have a type A personality. They are not the type of people who are easily inhibited. When they have problems with the company, either with the collective agreement or with something else, we can approach them. We may be a bit more flexible because if the company does not want to act and we lose our patience, then we may act ourselves. As a matter of fact, our agreement is now under revision. As for the French version, we will cover the costs if necessary so that members who request it will be able to have one. Pilots are not afraid of filing a complaint but as Mr. Fane and Mr. Udvarhelyi pointed out, it's a never-ending struggle. It is never easy for us to obtain a document in French or anything else related to the francophone fact.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I see.

You told us about the problems in some detail. Taking into account the previous reports from Air Canada as well as its past, I think that everyone here realizes that there are problems. In any case, if someone claims that there are not any problems, he must be living on another planet.

If we believed in utopia and were trying to come up with concrete solutions to settle these problems once and for all, that is having collective agreements in both official languages, representative pilots, etc... A number of solutions have been proposed to us. I would like to hear your opinion on them. For example, it was suggested to us that Air Canada be made a federal institution rather than a separate company subject to the Official Languages Act. Is this the kind of change that could be of concrete help to you, to the unions, the pilots and everyone else? If the same confidential complaint form were made available to all employees and Air Canada passengers, would that be a good thing? If there were a new information campaign in Air Canada, in airports and elsewhere to point out that the Official Languages Act must be applied... Do you have any solutions that would help to bring this vicious circle to a stop, this failure to respect the Official Languages Act?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: No, the Commission... They do not really have any power. That's how it is, you know.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: It would be unfortunate to observe that even though there are problems, there are no solutions because we do not have the necessary powers. I certainly agree with you that there are problems. What we need are suggestions about possible solutions. As parliamentarians, we can make some suggestions about solutions but after all, you are in the field. If we said, for example, that forms would have to be provided and there should be an advertising campaign, but that these things had already been tried in 1992 and did not produce results... Do you have any approaches to suggest, something that we can include in our reports and then hold Air Canada to account?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: I would like to make a suggestion. I realize that the problems raised by Mr. Fane and Edmond are different from mine. As far as the pilots are concerned, if we have anglophone pilots up front and they comment on the weather, the altitude and so forth, and then they ask the flight attendants at the back of the plane to take over and repeat what they have said in the other official language... What I was going to say is that you may end up finding yourself doing the work for Air Canada. If the existing legislation were complied with and if we made it clear to them that compliance was necessary, they would have to come up with the solutions required. If you want to provide solutions for them, if you have the time and you feel like doing it, then go ahead, but we already have an act in place. The only thing you have to do at the present time as parliamentarians and members of the committee involved in the process is to compel Air Canada to fulfil its legal and institutional commitments in one way or another.

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If somehow we were able to attach some financial aid to this and bring it to the ears of Mr. Milton if possible... If he behaved as a prudent administrator, as I am expected to do with my own family, and it is something I am quite happy to do, then we would not find ourselves in this present problem.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Ms. Thibeault, you have the floor.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.): Thank you, joint chairs.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you for coming. Believe me, you have all my sympathy. On the other hand, Mr. Beaulieu, there is something which, in my mind, does not work at all. You told us at the outset that in your opinion, about 8% of the pilots were French-speaking whereas before, there were 15.8%. That leads us to understand that there were not very many francophones at Canadian Airlines International Limited. Is that the case?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: It is.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Fine. So far, so good. You were asked where you got your numbers from. You consulted some sort of list. You mentioned French names. That's where I am not with you at all. We are talking about bilingualism here. We are not talking about French and English.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: I am aware of that.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: There are English-speaking pilots from other provinces who speak French very well and are quite capable of staffing a bilingual position.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: I agree with you.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: I think that is what we are talking about here. For example, the recruitment policy mentions attaining a recruitment ratio of 13% for francophone pilots. Would it not be more realistic and practical to talk about bilingual pilots?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: I admit that the approach is very acceptable. If your perception is that I would like to see only Quebec pilots hired, that is totally false. If it's a friend from Vancouver and his name is Smith and he is bilingual, I think that his hiring would contribute to attaining the objective.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: That's also the case for a Ms. Blackburn from Lac-Saint-Jean.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: Absolutely correct. I agree with you 100%. My intent was not to defend only francophone Quebeckers' interests. If we could encourage all the other Canadian pilots to speak the second official language... We have Manitoba members whose mother tongue is English and whose French is very good.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: If we really want to encourage English-speaking people to speak French, it's important to respect their bilingualism also. That's sometimes forgotten. I am not blaming you here, but I think we had to mention it anyway.

In the criteria of the hiring policy, sub (ii) reads:

(ii) the above target will be realized only if there are sufficient francophone applicants... who meet the screening minimums... and are available for induction.

What does the employer mean by “available for induction”?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: Sometimes, some people apply with us when they already have a job with another company. I could give you the case of a military pilot. There was rather a large exodus and the National Defence Act provides for six months' notice. So a candidate might have had a positive interview without yet being available for induction.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: We are talking availability.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: Yes, Madam.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.

I will call you Mr. Edmond, if you do not mind.

You talked about translating the collective agreement. In your collective agreement with Air Canada, is there a clause that says it must be bilingual? It would be important to know that.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: No, it just says...

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: You mean the translation of the collective agreement is done at Air Canada's discretion?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: No, it's in English and in French.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: So there is a clause specifying—

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: I am sure that our president, Pamela Sachs, filed a grievance, but grievances take two or three years to get settled. This one should get settled rather quickly.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: So you are telling us you finally got the translation of the latest collective agreement. Is that it?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: It's the one and only one we ever got.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Yes, but you have it.

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Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: According to the collective agreement, the company should print and distribute the collective agreement. We pay 50% of the costs. That is the agreement.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: You mean printing costs.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes, that's it, printing. Sorry.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: The company's responsibility is the translation and half of the—

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: No, the company is responsible for the printing, the distribution, the translation, everything. We share 50% of the costs.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Fine. Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): I am sorry, Ms. Thibeault. Mr. Udvarhelyi, could you give us the reference?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: It's clause 19.11.01?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: Ms. Thibeault, this is a standard clause that appears in Air Canada's collective agreements. The English version of the collective agreement is the legal document. The corporation makes a commitment to have the translation done and prepare the copies required for the francophone members who want the French version of the agreement. The costs are shared equally by the association and the company.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: So it's a just matter of deciding when it will be done.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: That's it. We always have to be pushing.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Mr. Edmond, you also mentioned training courses, especially concerning security matters. Where is that training done?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: It's done in Montreal, at the headquarters training centre. There are rooms reserved for that.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: That kind of training is done in Montreal.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: It's also done in Dorval and Saint-Laurent.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: So the training is given in the Greater Metropolitan Area.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: It's done at Air Canada headquarters.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: You have problems getting courses in French. That is the case?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: A complaint was made to Ms. Adam. Immediately after that, there was a communication with our vice-president, Mr. D'Arcy. The company followed the directives and right away after that, there was a choice of courses in French. However, as I already said, about a year later... If nobody holds their feet to the fire or if the flight attendants do not complain because there are no more courses in French although there were before... You have to hold their feet to the fire for everything. I have to deal with a lot of things: crewing assignments, workers' compensation. I have a lot to do.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Do I still have a few minutes? Two minutes, maybe?

[English]

Mr. Fane, passenger agents comprise an area that is so important. This is where we have the most complaints, no doubt about it. Is it true that when you hire an agent, you ask them whether they speak English, French, or another language?

Mr. Gary Fane: Yes, it is.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Are French and the rest isolated from English?

Mr. Gary Fane: No. Recently, in the Air Canada hiring practices they have been concentrating on hiring bilingual people, and if you speak another language, Greek, Italian, Yiddish, some other language, that's a plus.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: That would be considered an asset.

Mr. Gary Fane: That's right.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: So it's not and/or.

Mr. Gary Fane: No, definitely not. There are not many times I can give the employer credit, but in their hiring in the last few years they have been hiring bilingual Canadians.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: All right.

I wanted to talk to you about this very briefly, because I'm sure some of my colleagues will want to talk about it. When I get to Dorval Airport or here in Ottawa, I go to an agent, obviously, and it says “bilingual services”, except that I go all down the line, and suddenly I end up in front of an English agent, a unilingual agent. Can't you somehow find a better way of controlling that?

Mr. Gary Fane: Yes.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Because I can wait for a long time.

Mr. Gary Fane: I think there are many ways to control that. The most important way is to ensure that employees have proper language training, which has slipped down the priority list of the company. I think there is something wrong if you wait in line for 20 or 30 minutes and end up speaking to somebody who can't speak your language.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: It happens every day.

• 1615

Mr. Gary Fane: I'm sure it does. A small part of this problem will be resolved when senior people retire and move on, but you and I will be travelling a long time before it's totally resolved. How it gets resolved, quite candidly, is by having compulsory language training for sales and service people. Our union would agree 100% with this. When we place it on the bargaining table, the company says, well, you know, this is going to cost us money, and we tell them, it will cost you more than money, it will cost you an indignity, if you have travelling public that cannot be served.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: They may stop travelling.

Mr. Gary Fane: Exactly, or they may take VIA Rail.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would also like to welcome you to our committee. I am really glad to see you here today. For those of you who do not know me, I am Yvon Godin and I used to be a union representative. I can see the negotiations you are going through now and the problems you are having. On top of that, it's disgusting when we can see that there is an Official Languages Act and that you have just as many problems as they have in other companies.

Personally, I have negotiated collective agreements with Noranda. We demanded that the collective agreement be printed in both languages before meeting our members so that each and everyone of them could read that agreement in their own language before voting. We could get it. It's shameful to see that a company like Air Canada, that is subject to the Official Languages Act, is not even able to respect our country's two official languages.

Mr. Chairman, if they cannot even respect their own employees in the matter of a collective agreement, how can they claim to have any respect for Canadians in general? I have no problem in making that comment: Shame! Shame! Shame! The members of the union have to go and see the Official Languages Commissioner to get help with their collective agreement. Once again, it's disgusting, because a company like Air Canada is supposed to represent the people.

I would like to put a few questions because I find that your presentation was excellent. That's the real problem we have on the planes. I would like to know if there are special courses for employees who want to learn Spanish, for example.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: Yes, there are courses, but it's not mandatory for my members because they can always pass the puck to the flight attendants.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: In the past, there were also German courses.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Would someone who would like to learn German or Spanish have as big a problem to get language courses as anglophones who would like to learn French?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: Those courses are given during people's free time. As Mr. Fane indicated, if I wanted to learn German because I am assigned to the foreign-going, Frankfort run, that would not be considered as a need but a luxury. I would be offered the service, but I would have to take the course on my own time and that would not cost the company anything.

Mr. Yvon Godin: You said you could always pass the puck to the flight attendants, but how will you do that now that the cockpit door is locked?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: There will soon be an iron bar.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: In my case, it's no problem because I respect the Official Languages Act, but for members who are not—

Mr. Yvon Godin: We will do without the weather in some cases.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: We are still there. Air Canada employees are not ugly monsters. We all want to be part of the solution. More often than not, we set things up with the in-charge flight attendant. We make the announcement in English and the attendant listens and translates it into the other official language. There is a paper there, but we almost never use it because people know what is coming because of their long experience.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Does it happen in an emergency that the pilot himself must address the passengers?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: Absolutely.

Mr. Yvon Godin: In an emergency, he cannot slip a message to the flight attendant.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: No, but have to be careful. The official language of aviation is English. With the fight fought by the Gens de l'air in the mid-70s, we won the right to be masters in our own home and speak French. If I am flying my Airbus 320 with Captain Robichaud tomorrow, and he is here with me today, I will have the possibility and the pleasure of addressing the control tower in French. The same thing goes for Ottawa. But if I cross the control lines for Ontario or the U.S.A., I have to use English. We have no choice other than to be bilingual because we have to have that for our work, and we have no problem with that. When you want to be an international airline pilot, you learn to speak English and it's a pleasure to do that.

• 1620

In an emergency, we do not address the passengers directly. Of course, they do hear what we are saying but we are addressing the crew. Let's not forget that the flight attendants are not there just to serve coffee and greet us pleasantly. They are there first and foremost for safety. When we give our emergency orders, whatever the emergency might be, we advise our flight attendants, who are professionals, that this or that is going to happen. From that moment on, they take control of the cabin and steer people in the right direction.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I have reason to believe that recently—maybe I can give a bit of evidence a bit later—the flight attendants themselves say—you can correct me if I am wrong—that the little document giving information to the clients is in English only and not in both languages.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: What document are you talking about?

Mr. Yvon Godin: The emergency directives. When there is an emergency, the information is in English only.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes, there are two cards. There are francophone flight attendants who can demand the French manual and their emergency measures card is in French. On board the airplane, those things are placed in a little sealed plastic bag. I have never looked into one of those bags because I was never in an emergency situation.

Mr. Yvon Godin: You say that the flight attendant can demand it, but what are Air Canada's orders to its flight attendants on how to serve the public? According to the Official Languages Act, the public has the right to get information in both official languages of this country. What does Air Canada tell its employees?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: We are talking about an emergency.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Well, emergency or no emergency, whether you want coffee or the airplane is falling, there is no difference: it's a matter of service.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Before, we were talking about the emergency cards.

Mr. Yvon Godin: That's it. There is a little card you read in case of emergencies.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: That's actually a pictogram. It's an international language. There is neither French nor English on the emergency measures card.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Maybe I am not explaining this properly. I do not want to take too much time, Mr. Chairman. I am told there is a little card. It's not the one in the seat-back pocket. It's the card the flight attendant actually uses to give emergency directions.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: That is in the emergency manual, Manual 356. You can get it in English and in French. In the airplane, you have the same cards. If the flight attendant does not have the time to go fetch Manual 356 that is in his bag, beside the flight attendant's seat there is always a sort of plastic bag stuck to the wall with the same emergency cards in it. I imagine it is in English and in French. I have never looked because it is sealed. It is something you open only in case of an emergency. I imagine it is in English and in French. That's a good question, we will have to—

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): That's all, Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Fine, I will come back later with more questions.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Senator Losier-Cool.

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool (Tracadie, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to the three of you. I have sat on the Official Languages Committee for over five years now and I would say that we have talked about Air Canada at more than half of our meetings. I wonder whether we will ever manage to solve some of those problems some day.

One of the first problems I would like to identify, and I am coming back to Mr. Godin's question, has to do with collective agreements. I want to make sure I have understood this. You are saying that the English collective agreement is the official document.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: That depends on the language that was used to negotiate the agreement. I think it's different in our case. It says that the English and French versions of the agreement are both official and that in case of a difference of opinion—

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool: They both have an official character.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes, they both have an official character.

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool: I am sure you have the answer to my question. I think it is the Public Service Employment Act that says you have the right to obtain the collective agreement in your language. I had never thought that Air Canada might do that. So now we are talking about a reprint. There are not enough copies in French, is that it?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Let's say that between 1996 and 1998, there were no collective agreements printed up, in English or in French.

• 1625

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool: Are there any anglophones who got the French version of their collective agreement?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: No. You are asking me if anglophones got a French version?

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool: Yes. The contrary could have happened.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: No—

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool: No?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: No. Before 1999, the practice was that the company would print up the collective agreements in English and in French, but there was nothing specific in the collective agreement that forced it to do so within any kind of timeframe. It was not set out that the company had to produce collective agreements in English and in French within a three-month timeframe, for example. There was nothing. So we were somewhat at the company's mercy.

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool: Fine. What I want to say is that Air Canada, being subject to the Official Languages Act, should make sure that the members can get the collective agreement in the official language of their choice. Did you register a complaint with the Official Languages Commissioner?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes.

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool: And where is it at?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: I asked the gentleman who is taking care of it and we are still waiting for an answer.

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool: That's something that will have to be reviewed. We must insist because for me, it's really an offence against the Official Languages Act.

I have a brief question for Mr. Beaulieu: Do you believe that collective agreements should take precedence over the Official Languages Act?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: I do not believe so. I am answering quickly here. I am trying to see if there is some kind of trap or something like that.

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool: No, no. I am trying to be balanced also.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: In my opinion, our right to be served in our mother tongue, depending on certain conditions, prevails over the rest. If, in my case, I want my collective agreement in French it has to be available in that language. Our situation might be different from that of my colleague, but if I want my collective agreement in French, I will get it in French.

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool: I do not mean the text in French and in English when I am talking about the collective agreement. I am talking about job security, services and the rest of it.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: I can give you the Reader's Digest condensed version. We have two collective agreements. Only one of them is in both languages. There is a subclause that says that in case of a divergence of opinion between the two, because it is legal language, the English version has precedence.

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool: Ah, there is that.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: Yes, in case of a dispute. From that point on, yes, we are fighting to get a copy in French, but we have to be proactive because the timeframe is way too long, as Edmond was saying. The agreement we signed a year ago is already under review and we will have it printed up at our expense if need be. We have to do it that way otherwise we would be waiting until hell freezes over.

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool: So there is a clause that says that in case a disagreement arises—

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: Yes.

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool: Thank you.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: You are welcome.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Mr. Herron do you have any questions?

[Translation]

Mr. John Heron (Fundy—Royal, PC/DR): Yes, I have a question, if you do not mind.

I would like to get back to the subject addressed by Senator Losier-Cool about collective agreements. Is this agreement available only in English at this point in time?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes, the company printed it up in English only when it came out, about a year ago. We are still waiting for the French text. It's the collective agreement we signed in July 1999.

Mr. John Herron: Do all Air Canada workers now have an Internet address?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: In Montreal, there are approximately 1,000 flight attendants, with a total of around 200 e-mail addresses.

Mr. John Herron: Is the collective agreement available in French on the Internet?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes, there is an electronic copy in French in Toronto. I also have a copy in French, and I am in the process of setting up a Web site. I will be putting that on the Web site, of course.

Mr. John Herron: Do you think that that is a good way to make it available?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes, it certainly helps people who are on assignment somewhere, in London, Vancouver or elsewhere, and who need to check whether they have exceeded the allowable number of hours of work. What does the collective agreement say? I have been on duty for longer than 14 hours. What are my rights? I have worked longer than 16 hours. What are my rights? Sometimes they want to consult the agreement when they are away on work, but they may not have access to the Internet at the hotel or airport. In that case, they have to call whoever is in charge of assigning the crew to say that it is probably not legal to continue to work and that they want to be relieved. That person will say that, under this or that clause, the situation is still legal and they can continue.

• 1630

When that happens, it is good to have a document that can be consulted directly. Sometimes employees have to decide if the situation is legal or not and if they are going to refuse to continue working. There are a lot of issues like that. So it certainly helps, and I am eager for the Web site to be finished. Someone is working on that.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: I would like to add something, Madam. This is one more tool. However, what do we do about members who do not have access to the Internet, who have no computer at home or who refuse to have one? The pilots' philosophy is that as much information as possible has to be available on the Internet, but that the electronic version must be followed by a hard copy, as Edmond said, so that people can learn about their contract and have it available at 3 o'clock in the morning in Wabush, if necessary.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Senator Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Mr. Chairman, the more I listen, the more I feel depressed.

I have been meeting with people from Air Canada for years. Can anyone tell me whether the problem is bad faith or simply indifference? You have difficulty obtaining copies in French. He has difficulties because only 10 out of 150 candidates have been hired. Other people tell me that seniority is an issue and that if the older employees leave, they will be replaced with people who can speak both official languages. That is what I came away with from those discussions. How can a union agree to bargain in English like that?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Mr. Hallamore, Mr. Heinke and Mr. Toriani, who are responsible for labour relations—

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: That is a bad start.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: —are all unilingual anglophones. Those are the three people that we talk to every day. Yes, things get done in English, except in the local section. Of course, when I speak to my director, I do so in French, but at the national level, negotiations take place in English.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: But when you speak in French, it is off the record. You do not have a document that you can discuss with your colleagues. So you are discussing these things in English with your colleagues and you negotiate in English. You do everything in English.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Air Canada is responsible for translating this document and you pay 50% of the costs.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes. We are prepared to pay. The cost is not a problem.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Is it true that you pay for 50% of the translation costs?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: And that does not bother you?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Well, we have an executive right now... I do not want to criticize past executives, but there was a certain laxness. At present, we have an executive that will not accept this situation and we are the ones that had the printing, etc., of the document put into the collective agreement.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I will now turn to Mr. Fane.

[English]

Mr. Fane, you said some time ago during your remarks that the senior people for whom you're responsible will retire, and then we'll be able to come up with some new people who may be better qualified, linguistically speaking. Is that what you meant?

Mr. Gary Fane: That's exactly what I meant, Senator. We know that Air Canada is now in the process of downsizing. We have 8,000 or 9,000 passenger agents there serving the public. We have put together package arrangements so that 1,500 senior people will leave, i.e., those who have 25 years of service and are usually around 50 years old, so they have 25 years in the pension plan. We expect, in blunt terms, a whole bunch of unilingual Canadians will be leaving with smiles on their faces.

• 1635

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Most of the Air Canada people I've met here over the last 25 years on this issue have told me that seniority is the problem. Do you agree?

Mr. Gary Fane: Definitely not, sir. The problem is the lack of language training given to employees to serve the public in both languages. There is the odd occasion when we have the wrong attitude towards learning another language, but I'd suggest to you that the number of those folks is diminishing.

I'd also like, if you don't mind, Senator, to say that last weekend I negotiated a collective agreement for the St. Lawrence Seaway, a federal organization, and the bargaining was done maybe 75% in English, 25% en français. The documents were written and signed in both languages throughout the whole weekend. We had a strike deadline of 3 o'clock on Saturday, and we signed documents in both languages at 2 o'clock on Saturday, preventing a strike. The union's committee was bilingual. The Air Canada committees I have now are usually bilingual. The St. Lawrence Seaway committee had some unilingual Canadians on it, and we still managed to get the document in both languages signed and completely understood.

So I see opportunity here. The minister from Quebec talked about what the language committee can do. I'd like to see the language committee convene meetings of the company officials and the union officials and say, look, here's the problem, let's talk about solutions. But all solutions cost money.

So to answer your question, I don't think seniority is the problem, and I, as a union representative, would be very flexible on seniority if our members get to serve the public in both official languages.

[Translation]

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Mr. Beaulieu, I have one last question. I began by asking whether this situation was the result of indifference or simply a lack of goodwill. In your case—

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: In my humble opinion, Senator, it is a lack of goodwill. I have tackled this many times and I have proposed qualified candidates on an unsolicited list that I submitted every month. Seemingly to try to make me happy, they hired two or three people for the upcoming course out of a list of 20 and they told me that that showed that they were making an effort.

However, in my experience—and that is all that this is, my own opinion—they are simply not trying. Once again, we pilots always have to do things differently. Since only 8% of the pilots are francophones right now, the situation can cause problems even at the union level. If, as you suggest, we wanted to make a lot of noise because our collective agreement is not available in French... At the National Council of the Pilots Association, which has just been elected, I am the only bilingual francophone elected out of 14 voting members. Unless I am good on the violin, which I play regularly, and unless I am sweet and nice and promise not to say nasty things, the other members can easily isolate me and prevent me from appearing before the commission or here today.

I am actually somewhat lucky because I am in Montreal and I do have a bilingual majority there. But I always have to juggle to make sure that I have the support I need. That is why I jumped at the opportunity to meet with you today, because I need all the help I can get. I talked to the air traffic controllers. When Mr. Collenette is on my plane... I had the opportunity to give him a tour of the F-18 simulator a few years ago, because I was also involved in that side of things, but still... We have to take every opportunity that comes up—

I believe that the problem right now is simply a lack of will.

[English]

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Can I ask something of Mr. Fane? If you could settle the St. Lawrence Seaway agreement overnight, why don't you teach Air Canada to do the same thing and maybe give precedence to both official languages of this country?

Mr. Gary Fane: I think, sir, that would be a challenge. We'd be happy to give it a try next time we're bargaining, but you need two sides to do an agreement together. With the St. Lawrence Seaway, it's not even a question, there's no doubt. It's the only way to do business. With Air Canada, we're not there yet.

• 1640

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Well, Monsieur Beaulieu, I'd highly recommend that Mr. Fane be brought into the negotiations. We may have some success.

[Translation]

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: May I make a comment?

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Please do.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: I think that the pilots do not need help in asserting their rights. Although we realize that Mr. Fane is a man of great talent, we have been satisfied up to now with the way... But I do agree with him that it is difficult to negotiate when there is only one side talking.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

Senator Maheu.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu (Rougemont, Lib.)): Thank you, Mr. Joint Chair.

Mr. Beaulieu, I have a short question for you and also one for Mr. Udvarhelyi.

You handed out a document entitled:

[English]

“Flight Operations—Terminal II”—I'm assuming that's Toronto—with the vice-president of flight operations, business unit advisor, directors, chief pilots, flight managers.

[Translation]

You said earlier that everyone was anglophone, and that even Mr. Guillemette did not speak French.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): That is not what he said.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): That is what I want to check. Why do we have a sheet showing all the anglophone names from Toronto? What does that mean?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: Air Canada headquarters used to be in Montreal. When Mr. Bob Giguère, a unilingual anglophone from Winnipeg whose name is not on the list, became executive vice-president, he brought the headquarters for flight operations to Toronto. So the flight operations offices are in Terminal 2 at Toronto.

I am not trying to make a scene or to be malicious here. What I am showing you is the present situation. There is Ed Doyle, who is bilingual, and Mario Guillemette. Down at the bottom, there are, of course, secretaries who, like other employees, are usually bilingual. It was just to give you a quick picture of where we are at. What is going on at lower levels is naturally reflected at the top.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): And you do not have the same positions in Montreal?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: In Montreal, there are three managers for the RJ aircraft: the Regional Jet, the Airbus 320 and the DC-9. These are three bilingual pilots, but once again, their positions are at a much lower level than those shown here. These are really the senior executives. They are all pilots. But I must say that in Montreal I have no problem where bilingualism is concerned, because I think that everyone would agree that the pilots are well served because we have the Gens de l'air and the Pilots Association and we keep our finger on... But at the national level—

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): All right.

Mr. Udvarhelyi, in the letter, it says:

[English]

In light of uncertainty surrounding the outcome of proceedings being held by the CIRB related to last year's common employer....

[Translation]

When Mr. Hallamore wrote to Ms. Sachs, he said that “Given the uncertainty... last year.” Is that one of the reasons that you do not have it?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: That has nothing to do with it. The Canada Industrial Relations Board has nothing to do with the printing of a collective agreement. I do not know why. I imagine that it was a pretext that he was using, that he decided to quote the CIRB, thinking that they were perhaps going to swallow that. For my part, I see no connection whatever between the printing of a collective agreement and what happens before the CIRB.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): One of my colleagues commented earlier about the possibility of having you appear here before the committee with Air Canada. This is not the first time that I've heard this idea mentioned. Given that we do not have the authority to do that—at least I do not have the authority to impose such a thing—the reason that we invited all three of you, as employee representatives, was because we wanted to see what we could do to resolve this problem and prevent all the francophones from losing their positions in the job cuts that—as we know—Air Canada is going to have to make. What could we do together to improve the situation, in your opinion? Do you have any suggestions? My question is for all three of you.

• 1645

[English]

Mr. Gary Fane: Madam Senator, according to our collective agreement, Air Canada does not have the right to lay anybody off.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): For now.

Mr. Gary Fane: Until 2004, unless the Government of Canada changes my collective agreement.

But with your larger picture, we would be happy at any time to meet with the employer and members of your committee to put forth solutions to the problems, for example, the problem as to why there are only one or two bilingual positions when you get to an airport position. This is not appropriate. So we would be happy to sit down and talk with a group of union chiefs, senior management from the company, and your colleagues to help find solutions to improve the service. It would be a pleasure.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Mr. Beaulieu.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: In our case, unfortunately, unless you have a magic recipe for creating goodwill at flight operations, because we have really tried, the only solution that we see—and I unfortunately do not have that solution—is to force the company to comply with the Official Languages Act. If we had claws and teeth, and if we had that authority, the problem would be resolved very quickly.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes, I agree with Mr. Fane. It would certainly be a good idea to sit down with union representatives.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): We can suggest in our report that you sit down—

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Thank you, gentlemen.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): We will now begin a second round. Mr. Sauvageau will be followed by someone from the other side, by Ms. Thibeault, and then we will come back. I will have a few questions at the end.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: My first comment is for my friends from the other parties who are railing at the fact that Mr. Udvarhelyi's agreement is not bilingual. I would simply remind you that the Canadian Constitution of 1867 is not yet officially translated. So if this situation is terrible, there are others that are as well.

With respect to translation, I will make you an offer, Mr. Udvarhelyi. When you have documents that are not translated, rather than paying for those documents to be translated, you can send them to me, and I will raise the issue in the House, since we have a service that translates documents automatically. I will ask Mr. Collenette if he can have Air Canada's collective agreement translated, if he can have the pilots' training form translated, if he can... That will save you money, and I am sure that Mr. Collenette will be pleased to use the House of Commons' services. We are neighbours, you can come to see me. We were talking about concrete solutions. This is one that will save you money. It might sound lighthearted, but my offer is a serious one. If you have documents to be translated, Mr. Beaulieu and Mr. Fane, professional documents, not personal ones, relating to your collective agreements and workers' rights, we have a duty to help you get them translated.

Mr. Beaulieu, you mentioned the connection between assistance and compliance with the Official Languages Act. Air Canada will be raising the 15% limit for shareholders. It has asked or will be asking the government, as a result of September 11 and other things, for financial assistance, even though it was already in trouble. Do you think that it would be possible to link the issue of financial assistance from the federal government and compliance with the Official Languages Act?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: Possibly. Maybe my upbringing was too strict, but I do not see why we need to offer a carrot to ensure compliance, in the first place.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I agree with you, but—

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: If you think that that would be a solution, I am open to all suggestions. Would it work in the present environment or the present situation? I do not believe that... If you were able to do that quickly, it would be appreciated. But is it doable? Is it necessary? Is it really the solution?

• 1650

I want to come back to my initial point: the law is the law, and if you break the law there will be consequences. That is the way I was raised, and I use the same rule with my children. So maybe Air Canada has to be forced to fulfil its commitments and comply with the act.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Can you give me a concrete answer to the following question? If a pilot or a flight attendant, who is a unilingual francophone or a unilingual anglophone, wants to take training in the other language, how does that work in practice, for example, for flight attendants? Is it easy? Are there forms to be filled out? Does it depend on availability? Do people need to wait six months?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Let's say that that was the case. Almost all of the francophones are bilingual. We would offer courses in English during their days off in Toronto or Vancouver. They would be told to go to such and such a—

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Of course we can solve the bilingualism problem—and that is what Ms. Thibeault wanted—by hiring more bilingual francophones. That is the first thing that comes to mind when we think about bilingualism. But there are also anglophones who want to learn. Is it possible or easy for them to learn the other official language?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes. As far as I know, there are newsletters, including In Flight Service that offer from time to time—

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: It is possible.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes, it is possible.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: As for pilots, Mr. Sauvageau, since you asked me the question, there is no such thing as a unilingual francophone pilot at Air Canada. Pilots are either unilingual English or bilingual English or French. English is mandatory in aviation outside Quebec.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: A passenger who is not served by the act—

If you want to respond, Mr. Fane, please go ahead.

[English]

Mr. Gary Fane: I just wanted to share with you that it is not easy for Air Canada employees represented by the CAW to have bilingual language training across the country. There is not enough space for them, there is not enough time allotted, there are not enough instructors. And if there's anything I say of value here today, it is that we need the government to assist Air Canada, to ensure that proper services are provided to the public by bringing it about that their employees speak both official languages.

[Translation]

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Thank you.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: I would like to ask Mr. Fane another question. Earlier on, Senator Gauthier raised the issue of young people as opposed to “seniors” if I can put it that way. You said optimistically, it seems, that new employees at Air Canada were more and more bilingual. At least that is what I understood. However, last week, the office of Ms. Adam, the commissioner, sent representatives here who told us more or less the opposite. They expressed some concern by telling us that in the past, Air Canada had many bilingual employees, but that the situation had degenerated and there were fewer and fewer now, and that there will be fewer in the future.

Perhaps I really misunderstood the comments made last week, but could I get your reaction to that?

[English]

Mr. Gary Fane: Definitely, the percentage of bilingual Air Canada employees declined when Air Canada merged with Canadian Airlines. I'm optimistic, because the packages we're in the process of negotiating will ask senior people to leave.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Senior in age, you mean?

Mr. Gary Fane: Senior in age, yes.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Or in service?

• 1655

Mr. Gary Fane: Senior in service in the pension plan is what I mean. So we're talking about people who probably have 25 years of service and are over 50 years old. When I look at the group of those eligible to accept these packages, the majority of them are unilingual Canadians. A minority of them are bilingual Canadians, and the bilingual aspect centres more around la belle province and a little bit around New Brunswick. So I'm optimistic that when the senior folks leave with a smile and say goodbye, the numbers will get a little better, but that's not going to resolve the whole problem. If you ask me how I would resolve the whole problem, it would be to put clear language training in every collective agreement, compulsory for every CAW employee of Air Canada. The majority of our members would probably appreciate that. There may be a few who would not, but life is like that.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Mr. Godin, do you have any questions?

[English]

Mr. Yvon Godin: You were talking a little while ago, Mr. Fane, about whether we need this training and the company not really giving the training they should. I saw that the CAW wrote a proposal where it said that the workforce adjustment program must give special funding, with national standards across the country. Could this not be part of it, because it's a workforce adjustment in reality—they have to adjust? They should have adjusted 30 years ago, not under the new management, but under the government when the government was responsible for it. The employment insurance fund has over $34 billion surplus, and there could be money available to help in this case here.

Mr. Gary Fane: I think that's an excellent idea, the adjustment programs we're putting in. I will take that suggestion back to my colleagues. If you're overstaffed, which Air Canada now is, it would be an excellent idea to use some of those people to make other people available for language training, and I don't have a problem suggesting that the EI fund, seeing that the workers paid for it, or a good share of it, could finance some of that. I think I'm going to, if you don't mind, steal that idea and bring it back to the company next week.

Mr. Yvon Godin: You don't have to steal it. It comes from CAW.

Mr. Gary Fane: Okay.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: I have another question for Mr. Beaulieu. You said earlier that the act should have teeth. Do you think—and I have used this example often in committee—that it is the same thing as someone who goes 140 km/h, who is driving too fast, and who is stopped by the police? The act has teeth. The driver loses points and pays a fine. Drivers have the choice of slowing down or losing their driver's licences.

In the case of official languages, the act has no teeth. There is no punishment. Air Canada can do what it wants, and even if we were to bring Air Canada here before us, it would still not be in agreement with the union. I think that is the case. It is the act itself. The presentation you are making here, before this parliamentary committee, is not to get the ball rolling, but to tell Parliament to give the act some teeth, because that is why it is not being complied with.

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: I agree with you, Mr. Godin. That is precisely why, without revealing my past and present political allegiances, we had Bill 101 in Quebec or the Official Languages Act, which the government enacted several years ago. We cannot count on people to be good citizens and comply with legislation or to do so in good faith. So yes, I agree with you: we need an act like the one in Quebec and the one in Canada, but with some hair on its chest, if you will.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I have one last short question. Let's go back to the collective agreement. I am going to try and put two questions into one. The problem is not just about printing the collective agreement in French; the problem is distributing it in French. That is the problem, isn't it?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes, that's it, because this is the one and only copy in French that we have at present. I need at least 1,000.

Mr. Yvon Godin: We are not even talking about 6,000 copies. That is not what we're talking about. There is not even one or six for the committee.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: No, I only brought it in English. Yes, that is the problem.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): We do not distribute documents at committee unless they are available in both languages.

• 1700

Mr. Yvon Godin: No, it is okay. I just wanted to know that. On their committee, Mr. Chairman, when they concluded the negotiations, they did not even have copies in French themselves. We are not talking about 6,000, 1,000 or 500 copies. They did not even have six. They did not have any.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): If I may, I have two or three small points to draw to the attention of Senator Losier-Cool who, I am sure, reads our committee proceedings. I would like to point out to her that the first part of the book that we distributed to all committee members last week contains a summary of all matters regarding Air Canada raised at the Committee on Official Languages. I am going to ask the Senate clerk to ensure that she is made aware of all comments by committee members with respect to Air Canada. Almost half have been made since she has been here. Not quite half but many. Thank you.

When we quote something, we don't necessarily distribute it. I am going to quote two articles from the agreement entered into by Air Canada and the Canadian Union of Public Employees, Airline Division, that covers the period from November 1, 1998 to October 31, 2001, and which will still be in force for the next two or three days.

You referred to a couple of articles. I am going to refer to two articles, and I am going to read them so that they are on the record for today's meeting, if I may.

[English]

Section 19.10 is “Language of Contract”:

The English and French language versions of this Collective Agreement are both official. In the event the two versions of the Agreement are at variance, the version thereof that that corresponds to the language in which it was negotiated will prevail.

[Translation]

Here is the second article, article 19.11.01:

[English]

The Agreement will be printed in both French and English and the cost will be shared equally between the Company and the Union. The booklet form shall be subject to mutual agreement between the Union and the Company.

[Translation]

I want to make sure that these two articles are on the record.

I want to go back to a matter raised by Mr. Udvarhelyi. You said earlier on that the negotiators were unilingual anglophones. Were you talking about the union negotiators, the company negotiators or both?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: They are all unilingual at Air Canada. Richard Nolan, Claire Renaud, the secretary-treasurer, Linda Arsenault from Calgary, and I represent the union. We are bilingual.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): You are saying that the union has the ability—

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: There are four of us.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Out of how many?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: There is Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal and Halifax, plus three members of the executive. These are all locals. So, six plus three equals nine. Four people out of nine are bilingual.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): You say that all negotiations took place in English.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

[English]

Mr. Fane, I want to explore a little more this concept of seniority versus ability of employees, especially the more junior ones coming into the corporation with linguistic duality, if you will, and which should prevail in cases of conflict. If there's a conflict about laying off—and you mentioned the 1,200 you represent who are part of the subsidiaries or the regional carriers—it's the younger ones who are being laid off, the ones who have the most capacity in both languages.

Mr. Gary Fane: That's right.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Why is the union supporting that?

Mr. Gary Fane: On the regional airlines now we don't have bilingualism. With the exception of Quebec, the majority of workplaces on regional airlines are unilingual, and I'm talking about all over British Columbia, all over Alberta, all over Manitoba. You have some bilingualism in Ontario and Quebec. You definitely have a lot more bilingualism in Quebec. As you go out to eastern Canada, you'll run into unilingualism. So it's not a matter of the company coming to us and saying, I'm going to keep John and lay off Susan, because she's bilingual. We don't have that situation now because, quite candidly, we have lots of places where people are only unilingual, and it has not been a priority yet for the employer to train people in the other official language.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): But with the 1,200, if the company came to you and said, we would like to discuss the possibility of putting a higher value on the linguistic abilities of our employees, and therefore we look to you to give us some flexibility or to collaborate in some way to achieve that end, would the union go along with that?

• 1705

Mr. Gary Fane: The union would have no choice but to go along with it, because of the Official Languages Act, to be very honest with you. On the other hand, I'm going to say to the employer, yes, I'm going to let you keep the junior unilingual person, but by the way, I'm going to give you an obligation to train, over some period of time, the senior unilingual Canadians, so that their seniority doesn't get flushed down the toilet.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Fair enough. Okay.

So you agree that the Official Languages Act of Canada prevails over collective agreements.

Mr. Gary Fane: It does. I understand the law of the land.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Mr. Beaulieu, do you agree with that?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: I hope so, yes.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Mr. Beaulieu, I want to ask you one last question.

You were very categorical when you said there was a lack of goodwill. Have you been monitoring Air Canada for some time now? How long have you been there?

Mr. Serge Beaulieu: I have been there for five years.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Five years. So I cannot ask you my question. Perhaps someone else has—

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: I have been there for 29 years.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Has there been more goodwill at other times in Air Canada?

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: Yes, when it was a Crown corporation.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): All right, thank you.

Mr. Edmond Udvarhelyi: French was more highly respected.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): We will distribute a letter that the co-chairs have sent to the president of Air Canada by registered mail reflecting our unanimous will to invite him to this committee before the Christmas recess—that for your records.

[Translation]

Since Ms. Adam, the Commissioner of Official Languages, is with us, I would like to ask her if she has any questions to ask or any comments to make.

Ms. Dyane Adam (Commissioner of Official Languages): I would like to make some comments, if I may.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Go ahead. I hope that my colleagues do not object.

Some voices: On the contrary.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Go ahead, Ms. Adam.

Ms. Dyane Adam: Good afternoon.

I would like to start by clarifying Air Canada's obligations, because I think that some of the questions raised by Parliamentarians can lead to confusion.

For example, one of Air Canada's obligations—and it is somewhat different for regional carriers—deals with participation rates for anglophones and francophones. I am getting back to the question raised by Ms. Thibeault, who asked why mention was made of English names as opposed to French names.

For this obligation with respect to the participation rate, employees' first languages must be taken into account for this part of the act. As is the case for all federal institutions, Air Canada's workforce must be representative of the Canadian population. So that means ensuring that roughly 25% of all employees indicate that French is their first language and the rest indicate that their first language is English.

We know full well, as was documented by the presentations my colleagues made last week, that Air Canada has not been successful in capturing this information, so it is impossible for my office to verify whether or not Air Canada is complying with the act as regards the participation rate because there are too many unknown variables. This is one problem that Air Canada must rectify so that we can be in a position to assess whether or not it is complying with that aspect of the act.

As regards the language of work, I think that many of the issues raised by the union show what my office has found to be the case for many years: the language of work is not respected. We are not saying that the language of work is not respected at all times, but it is not respected generally speaking, and we have had many examples of that.

What does it mean to respect the language of work? That means providing employees with the tools they need to work in the language of their choice. We were talking about negotiating collective agreements. If, as some witnesses have stated today, the employer does not even have a spokesperson who can speak French or one of the two official languages, the employer is not providing a working environment that is conducive to the use of both official languages. That is a problem.

• 1710

The other thing is the act itself, which states that French and English are equal. When an act or a collective agreement states that in the event of a dispute one language takes precedence, that is in itself a violation of the letter and the spirit of the act.

It would be very important for this committee to review the document provided by my office in order to see if, over the years, there have been several repeat offences under the same section of the act. Air Canada must take a fundamental look at the situation, and do some major spring cleaning to put some order in its affairs as regards official languages.

In the most recent report that I submitted to Parliament, I alluded to a fundamental problem with respect to compliance with the act. It is a question of attitude, and I think that is where the problem lies. Bad faith has been mentioned, but I think that it is a question of attitude, and of the corporation taking full responsibility for its obligations.

As for the act itself, should it be strengthened? Should it have more teeth? I think the committee must seriously examine this issue. My office has provided you with an unequivocally clear dossier on non-compliance with the act by Air Canada. There are coercive means that can be used to resolve these problems. I always prefer helping people see the merit of complying with the act, but in circumstances where we are dealing with a serious reoffender, this committee must take a serious look at stricter, more coercive measures. That will not prevent Air Canada from doing an about-face and showing that it has profoundly changed its culture. I am always prepared to recognize that change is possible, but in this case, I think—

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you, Ms. Adam.

Are there any other questions or comments for our witnesses today?

A voice: No.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): I want to thank you all very much for coming today. We greatly appreciate it. I think this has been very useful for us. I do not know if I should say “Have a good flight back” or “Drive safely”, but allow me to conclude the meeting by raising two issues, including one that deals strictly with Air Canada.

I have a complaint, Madam Commissioner. I did not want to write a letter, because I write to you so often. On October 12, 2001, I was in Toronto at Terminal 2 and I was waiting for a flight. For an hour, in the Ottawa-Montreal RapidAir section, I listened to the agent announce the flights from Toronto to Montreal. These announcements were in English only. For those of you who are taking notes, it was from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m. on October 12.

Committee members, I would like a little bit of help establishing an agenda to hear from future witnesses, because the situation is unclear. Instead of losing meeting days, I would suggest that we move on to study another matter, one which we all agree on, in other words section 41 of part VII of the Official Languages Act. If I may, I would ask you this week to suggest the names of the witnesses you would like to invite as part of our examination of section 41 of part VII of the act. We could also put this request in writing for members of the committee who are not here. We will start with a briefing session by the commissioner's office and our researchers, and we have agreed that the first witness will be the Minister of Justice. But beyond that, I would appreciate your suggestions or your recommendations this week so that we can begin. We will be forced to deal with the two matters at the same time, because the appearance dates remain uncertain, as you can see. We are still waiting for Mr. Milton's response.

Thank you and have a good evening.

The meeting is adjourned.