LANG Committee Meeting

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON OFFICIAL LANGUAGES

COMITÉ MIXTE PERMANENT DES LANGUES OFFICIELLES

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, November 23, 1999

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[Translation]

The Joint Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Luc Bégin): Order, please.

As joint clerk of this committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of a joint chair for the Senate. I am ready to entertain motions to that effect.

Senator Louis J. Robichaud (L'Acadie—Acadia, Lib.): I nominate Senator Losier-Cool.

The Joint Clerk (Mr. Luc Bégin)): It is moved that the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool do take the chair of this committee as joint chair. Is it your pleasure, Honourable Senators, to adopt the motion?

(The motion is carried)

The Joint Clerk (Mr. Luc Bégin)): I therefore invite Senator Losier-Cool to take the chair.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool (Tracadie, Lib.)): Thank you for your confidence.

We will now elect a joint chair for the House of Commons.

[English]

The Joint Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Miriam Burke): Pursuant to Standing Order 106(1), your second item is to elect a joint chair representing the House of Commons. I'm ready to receive motions to that effect.

Mr. Benoît Serré (Timiskaming—Cochrane, Lib.): I propose Raymonde Folco.

The Joint Clerk (Ms. Miriam Burke): It's been moved by Mr. Serré that Raymonde Folco take the chair of this committee as co-chair. Is there a seconder?

Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain (Guelph—Wellington, Lib.): Yes.

(Motion agreed to)

The Joint Clerk (Ms. Miriam Burke): I declare Madame Folco duly elected co-chair of the committee and invite her to take the chair.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.)): I will not make a long speech, but I would just like to thank you. Though we began late because of unavoidable delays, we will still perform some very good work together. I believe that we will very much enjoy working together.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): We will redouble our efforts.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): That's right.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): We will now elect the two vice-chairs for the House of Commons. The first vice- chair must be an opposition member.

Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, BQ): From the House of Commons or the Senate?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): The House of Commons. There are two, and one is an opposition member.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Normally, it should be a Reform member. Reform is the Official Opposition, is it not? So the vice-chair should automatically be a Reform member.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Is that automatic?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): That is right, because Reform is the Official Opposition. Go ahead.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Could someone please nominate a vice-chair from the Official Opposition in the House of Commons?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I nominate Grant Hill.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Very well.

Mr. Benoît Serré: I second the motion.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: That is settled, then.

(The motion is carried)

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): We must now elect a second vice-chair from the government side.

Mauril Bélanger has nominated Benoît Serré.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Are you back in your party's good graces?

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(The motion is carried)

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Congratulations, Mr. Serré. You are the second vice-chair.

We can now move on to routine motions.

Concerning the Library of Parliament, Joan Fraser moves that the committee retain the services of one or more research officers from the Library of Parliament, as needed, to assist the committee in its work, at the discretion of the joint chairs.

Mr. Rivest, would you like me to read the motion in English?

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest (Stadacona, PC): No, that is fine.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Is that all right, then?

(The motion is carried)

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): We have a motion on the distribution of documents. Is it being moved by Mr. Plamondon?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Point of order, Madam Chair. I find the wording of this motion unacceptable. It says: “That the Joint Clerks of the Committee be authorized to distribute, in their original language, the documents received from the public and that the Joint Clerks ensure that such documents are translated and the translation distributed as promptly as possible”. I don't want “as promptly as possible” to mean a month after the meeting. We must have the documents for the meeting itself.

I remember a meeting attended by demographic experts from Toronto. They brought a very interesting brief, which unfortunately was only available in English. So we had to put the meeting off for a month, and they went back to Toronto. They came for nothing. I don't know how we might word the motion. We might perhaps give verbal consent to having documents distributed in both official languages when the meeting begins, not a week later. It is a major problem for me otherwise, since I speak very little English.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): I agree. If any committee should follow that rule carefully, it is this one. It is a question of principle. We might simply change the wording: “That the Joint Clerks of the Committee be authorized to distribute...”

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Forgive me, but aren't witnesses responsible for translating their own documents?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): No, not necessarily. Parliament has its own translation department.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Mr. Bélanger.

Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): Madam Chair, I would point out that, on a motion by a critic from the Official Opposition, the Canadian Heritage Committee established that all documents would have to be tabled in both languages. As a result, committee clerks had to notify potential witnesses that any documents to be distributed during the meeting would have to be submitted well in advance so that they could be translated by our staff. That meant all documents tabled before the committee had to be in both official languages. That motion was put forward by the Official Opposition critic, and was unanimously adopted. Another committee has also established the procedure.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): We will therefore have to amend the motion.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): First, I will recognize Mr. Bellemare, who had a comment.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Carleton—Gloucester, Lib.): Madam Chair, all Canadian organizations have the right to appear before us and make a presentation in the language of their choice. If they want to submit a written document to the committee, that document can be in the language of their choice. Officials are an exception to the rule: they are required to submit any written documents in both official languages.

Mr. Bélanger says that we should notify people to submit their documents well in advance so that we can have them translated here. This protects them from embarrassment when they appear before the committee, since there is always some member who raises the issue when documents appear in one language only.

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The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): We should then draft a motion to that effect. We must of course avoid embarrassing witnesses, as you pointed out, and notify them as early as possible that they must provide documents well in advance so that we can have them translated.

Any other comments on the subject? Yes, Mr. Plamondon.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I would rephrase this motion as follows. I think that this is what the Agriculture Committee said: “That the joint clerks of the committee be authorized to distribute documents received from the public only in both official languages.” That is really what we mean, is it not? I like Mr. Bélanger's idea of notifying people.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Absolutely.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: We must help them out.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Yes, of course.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Any other comments on this motion? We can put the question, then. Mr. Plamondon, could you please re-read your motion?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I move that the joint clerks of the committee be authorized to distribute documents received from the public only when they are available in both official languages.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): That is fine.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: As for the rest, we will come to some verbal agreement, as Mr. Bélanger suggested.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Any comments on the motion? None. We can therefore assume the motion is carried, unless you want an official vote. I do not really see why we need one. You do want an official vote? Very well. The motion has just been read by Mr. Plamondon.

Senator Louis Robichaud: Could Mr. Plamondon repeat the motion, please?

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Mr. Plamondon, could you please read your motion again?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I move that the Joint Clerks of the Committee be authorized to distribute the documents received from the public only when they are available in both official languages.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): That is right, in both official languages.

(The motion is carried unanimously)

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Motion 7 is on printing the Minutes of Proceedings and Evidence. The clerk tells me that we usually have 250 copies printed, and that those are sufficient. However, you can move that we have more printed if you wish.

Senator Louis Robichaud: I move that we have 250 copies printed.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): The Honourable Senator Louis Robichaud, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gérald Beaudoin, moves that the Committee print 250 copies of its Minutes of Proceedings and Evidence.

(The motion is carried)

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Motion 8 is on the quorum: “That the quorum be fixed at four members, provided that both Houses are represented whenever a vote, resolution or other decision is taken.”

Yes, Mr. Plamondon.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I believe that, in this sort of motion, we would normally specify that at least one member of the opposition should be present: “That the quorum be fixed at four members, provided that both Houses and the opposition are represented whenever a vote, resolution or other decision is taken.”

Senator Louis Robichaud: The Official Opposition, or...?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Just the opposition.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): I believe it is more than four members.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Right, it is quorum. What is quorum? Four members?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): It is more than four members. I am told it was seven last year. The opposition must of course be represented.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Could we come to some agreement on this? There is a typo in motion 8. Full quorum should be seven members, and reduced quorum should be four members. That is where the error lies. We could say that both Houses and the Official Opposition should be represented among those seven members. Would that be acceptable, Mr. Plamondon?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Yes, but there is something I should point out—I was on the committee all last year, and never saw seven members here.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): For quorum.

Mr. Mauril Bélanger: You always saw more members.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I always saw fewer members.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Fewer members?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I concede that the meetings were usually to hear witnesses, but members were generally not rushing to get here.

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But I am sure we had agreed on seven members as our quorum for last year.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Yes, that is right. And I do not think we had any problems convening seven members for a vote.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: The quorum was seven last year?

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): That is what our clerk has confirmed, Mr. Plamondon.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: You checked? Fine, then. Let us leave it at seven for a vote. But remember that we specify “seven members, provided that both Houses are represented whenever a vote, resolution or other decision is taken.”

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): No, we specify “provided that both Houses and the opposition are represented”.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Agreed. I will move the motion.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Mr. Plamondon moves the motion.

Senator Gérald-A. Beaudoin (Rigaud, PC): Seven members, four members or five members?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Seven members. The motion for a reduced four-member quorum is number 9. We should have checked to see what we wrote last year.

Is motion 8 carried?

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): No, there has not been a vote yet.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): There has not been a vote on motion 8 which is on the quorum. I am therefore putting the question.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Yes, Senator Meighen.

Senator Michael A. Meighen (St. Marys, PC): When you say that the opposition must be represented, do you mean the opposition in both Houses or just the opposition in one House?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Normally, you would mean the opposition in the House of Commons, though I would have no problem with specifying the opposition in both Houses.

Senator Michael Meighen: That is what I feel we should do, given that this is a joint committee.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Provided that people show up.

Senator Michael Meighen: Yes, of course.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Forgive me, but that could pose a problem. I have not been here very long, but from your words I have gained the impression that it is difficult enough to convene four or five members for meetings. I would therefore suggest that we leave the quorum at seven members of both Houses, and leave the term "opposition" fairly vague, so that it can mean either the opposition in the Senate or the opposition in the House of Commons.

If both oppositions are represented, that is even better. But at those times when they are not, there will at least be one member of the opposition in one House present. Otherwise, we may have problems with votes.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: That would require some flexibility, Madam Chair.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): We had this discussion last year. In any case, will you not all be attending next year's meetings?

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Mr. Plamondon.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I would very much like us to specify that at least one member of the opposition in the House of Commons must be present. If the Senate would like to specify a member of its own opposition, it may do so. Most of the legislation we will be considering comes from the House of Commons, so it seems natural that the opposition in the House of Commons be represented here, as it is in all other committees.

I would like the motion to specify both Houses and the opposition, including a member of the opposition in the House of Commons. However, I have no objection to adding “and a member of the opposition in the Senate”. But we do always want a member of the House of Commons opposition here, do we not?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Senator Beaudoin.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: I think we should specify a member of the opposition in the Senate as well, because both Houses are equal. Our guiding principle is that both Houses must be represented. So if we mention the opposition, it must be the opposition in both Houses. The whole thing must be logical.

Senator Michael Meighen: The motion deals with the quorum we need to hold a vote. I think we would be wrong in believing that all members will be here whenever we have a vote.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Well, that would be the whip's problem.

Senator Louis Robichaud: But if you mention one House, you must mention the other.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Agreed. We should therefore state that a quorum is seven members, and that both Houses, including the opposition in both Houses, must be represented.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): A member of the opposition from each of the two Houses.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Yes, a member of the opposition from each of the two Houses.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: The opposition in the House of Commons and the Senate.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): That is right.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: As Mr. Robichaud said, we should specify a member of the opposition in the Senate and a member of the opposition in the House of Commons, at the very least.

As for the Liberal majority....

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): I am going to suggest a new wording for the motion, and you can tell me whether you agree: “That the quorum be fixed at seven members, provided that both Houses are represented, and that a member of the opposition in each of the two Houses is present.”

Mr. Louis Plamondon: When a vote or any other decision is taken.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Exactly.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): I thought it was Senator Robichaud who had moved this motion. Was it Mr. Plamondon? I should have taken note.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Either one or the other, or both, it does not matter.

• 1555

Senator Michael Meighen: The bus is leaving at 5 o'clock.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: In the event of a vote, a resolution or any other decision.

Senator Michael Meighen: We could ask for a consensus on the question of the bus. We do not want to be constrained by our own words.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: You are the ones who would have problems, not us.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Are we ready to vote on motion 8?

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Who is the mover?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Mr. Plamondon, seconded by Senator Louis Robichaud, moves that we adopt motion 8.

(The motion is carried)

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Let us move on to motion 9 which deals with the reduced quorum. It is moved: “That the Joint Chairs be authorized to hold meetings in order to receive evidence and authorize printing thereof when a quorum is not present so long as four members are present provided that both Houses are represented.”

You will notice that in this case there is no mention of voting but simply of receiving evidence.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: What did we decide last year? Was it four members including members of the opposition?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Was it four, Miriam?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: A member of the opposition should also be present.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Senator Fraser is moving motion 9 which reads as follows: “That the Joint Chairs be authorized to hold meetings in order to receive evidence and authorize printing thereof when a quorum is not present so long as four members are present, provided that both Houses are represented.”

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I move that we add: “provided that both Houses are represented, including opposition members from the Senate and the House of Commons”. There should be at least one member from the House and from the Senate.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Since there are four opposition parties in the House, those would be your four members.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: No, as long as there was one opposition member.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): One of the four.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: One of the four.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: One member of the opposition at the table.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): One of the four. Mr. Bélanger.

Mr. Mauril Bélanger: This motion is designed to facilitate the work of the committee when it is hearing evidence. Since we are proposing a reduced quorum to facilitate our work, would we not be achieving the opposite effect if we require the presence of an opposition member from the House and from the Senate? I am just asking the question.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): This is the same discussion which we had last year.

Mr. Mauril Bélanger: This motion refers only to meetings where we receive evidence so that we can have it printed up in our minutes. That is the purpose of a reduced quorum. It does not apply to meetings where we make decisions, and I understand this distinction. I supported the motion on the regular quorum, but I am afraid we may be depriving ourselves of the flexibility we want with respect to a reduced quorum.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Mr. Plamondon, did you want to say something?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I understand your question, Mr. Bélanger, but it is the House tradition that no committee sits to hear evidence or on questions of procedure without the presence of an opposition member. It is simply out of respect for this tradition that I am making this point. There are four parties and one of the four parties should be present. As far as the Senate is concerned, there have always been two Conservative senators next to me when I have sat on this committee. I do not think we need to worry.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Perhaps we could go half way? I tend to agree with Mr. Bélanger, but I fully understand the opposition's point of view. If we require the presence of at least one opposition member, that would ensure the presence of the opposition. If we require the presence of one member from the Senate and from the House, we are complicating matters. Let us go halfway, if you are agreeable.

Mr. Mauril Bélanger: By not stating whether the opposition member comes from the House or the Senate, we are treating them on an equal footing.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Exactly, a member of the opposition.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: But this runs counter to motion 8 which we have already adopted. If we want to be logical, we have to be consistent.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): We must also be pragmatic, Senator.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: Not in a legislative text; there you must be logical. Look, there are two principles here. Both Houses must be equal; because the opposition in each House is just as equal as that in the other Chamber. I feel your principle is general. There is a problem because there are two proposals in a single paragraph. I do not really like that and it is something I always fight against. But it can be accepted, if only as an exception. There are two ideas: there are two Chambers and there are two oppositions. I think we should also respect this logic in motion 9.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Not always.

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The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): If I may, Senator, I would say first of all that we are not talking about a legislative text here, but rather of receiving evidence during hearings. That is the difference between motion 9 and motion 8, which is of greater consequence because voting is involved.

In the case of motion 9, we are there to hear witnesses and members who are absent will have access to the debate because they have access to the minutes of proceedings from the meeting. As well, and I have already said this, I am afraid that we are just making things difficult for ourselves. We must not forget that everyone is notified of the meeting; all members receive a notice of the meeting whether they are from the House or the Senate, and whether they are opposition members or government members. So everyone of us must make his arrangements and assume his responsibilities. That is something we should not overlook either.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: Let us vote on the motion.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Mr. Bélanger, did you have something to say?

Mr. Mauril Bélanger: I accept the point expressed by Senator Beaudoin to the effect that both Houses must be treated equally. If we do not specify either House, and if we do not say that one of the four persons constituting the reduced quorum must be an opposition member, we are treating all members of the committee equally, because they may come from either Chamber. Thus we can logically say that we are treating them equally.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: What is important from the legal point of view is the right to vote. I will not budge on that, because in that case there must be absolute equality. This reduced quorum still counts because evidence is being received, but no action is being taken after the witnesses have been heard. No decisions are being made.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Mr. Bélanger suggests that we state “so long as four members are present including one opposition member and one member from each of the two Houses”.

If the joint chairs and the vice-chairs are present, then the opposition is represented because one of the vice-chairs is a member of the opposition.

(The motion is carried)

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Let us go on to motion 10 regarding working lunches. It is moved: “That the Committee authorize the Joint Chairs, from time to time, as the need arises, in conjunction with the Joint-Clerks of the Committee, to take the appropriate measures to provide lunches for the Committee and its Sub-Committees, for working purposes, and that the cost of these lunches be charged to the Committee”.

That way we will be able to pay for sandwiches as the need arises.

(The motion is carried)

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Let us go on to motion 11, about questioning witnesses.

Last year, we granted seven minutes to the first speaker of each party and then five minutes for each of the other speakers. That was the formula we adopted last year.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: In what order?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: We should specify that because last year, we argued about it for a month. We agreed to grant seven minutes to the Reform Party, then seven minutes to the Bloc Québécois, seven minutes to the Liberals, seven minutes to the NDP and seven minutes to the Conservatives. That completed the first round.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Then the floor was given to another Liberal member. In the first round, there were two Liberals.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Yes, you are right. For the opposition parties, there was a Conservative either from the House of Commons or from the Senate.

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The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Excuse me, Mr. Plamondon. The clerk gave me the list. Here is the list as it was last year.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): This is exactly what he just said. For the first seven-minute round, we had the Reform Party, the Bloc, the Liberals, the Conservatives, the NDP and the Liberals.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: In the first round, seven minutes were granted to the Liberals from the House of Commons and seven minutes to the Liberals from the Senate. As for the opposition, we granted time to Conservatives either from the House of Commons or from the Senate.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: I agree that it should be either one.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Either one. For the NDP, there was no problem.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Perhaps we should specify that. If I remember correctly, as chair, I very often gave the floor to people who were present, there wasn't really that much fighting.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: They were all present.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): That is it.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I think that the NDP now has more members in the House of Commons than the Conservative Party. How many members do they have?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Now, in the House of Commons?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Since the NDP is ahead, it takes precedence over the Conservative Party.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Oh yes?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: You should reverse your order.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): I thought it was.... Very well, we will reverse the order.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: So, it is the Reform Party, the Bloc, the Liberals, the NDP, the Conservatives, and the Liberals.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): In the first round.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: The first round is seven minutes. The second round—

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Five minutes, in the same order. Then the floor is given to those who have not had the opportunity to ask questions.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Very well. In the second round, it could be the same person, the same member of the Reform Party and the same member of the Bloc.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Yes, absolutely.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: On the Liberal side, they could also be the same. In the third round, the floor is given to those who have not spoken yet. That is it.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Mr. Plamondon, I doubt whether there will be a third round.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Yes, yes.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Yes, yes.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Last year, sessions lasted two or three hours. Wait! We will show you the ropes.

Some Hon. Members: Ah, ah!

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Two, three or even four rounds.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): The fourth round was for those who were still in the room.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Generally, there were three rounds.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Yes, I agree.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: After the first two rounds, those who had not spoken at all had the floor. Generally, there were two Liberals. There could be a second member of the Bloc and a second Conservative. What order do we follow in the third round?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Yes, that's how it was last year. I followed the order in which the persons had requested the floor.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Write it down: in the final round, we follow the order in which the interveners asked for the floor.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): That's what I did.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: That is right.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Is that all right? It has been written down. Who moved this motion?

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: This is part of the motion.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Does this motion really contain everything? In any case, let us write it down, because it is better to have it in writing.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: It is perhaps better to write it down.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Excuse me. I have it here and I will read it out loud.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Go ahead.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): The first round will be as we said, namely the Reform Party, the Bloc, the Liberals, the NDP, the Conservatives and the Liberals will each have seven minutes. In the second round each one will have five minutes in the same order. In the third round, it will be at the discretion of the chairs, following the order in which the interveners asked for the floor.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Perfect.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): It is seven minutes and five minutes. Some take ten minutes, then seven minutes, but this is left up to the chair's discretion.

Senator Beaudoin, will you move this motion? Do you agree?

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: Yes, I entirely agree. It worked very well in the past.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): The clerk reminds me that we will have to vote on motion 10 because it involves money. It is a budget matter. Does somebody want to move this motion? It has been moved by Joan Fraser.

(The motion is carried)

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Let us go on to motion number 12, regarding witness expenses.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Mr. Bellemare, is it a question or a motion?

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: This is a question. In number 12, it does say: “That, at the discretion of the Joint Chairs, as per the regulations established by the Board of Internal Economy...”.

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Here I see representatives of the Senate and the House of Commons. If I am not mistaken, I believe that there are two boards of internal economy. So, shouldn't it rather say: “the regulations established by both boards of Internal Economy”?

What budget does this money come from? Does it come exclusively from the budget of the House of Commons?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): No.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Is it from the budgets of both chambers? This is not clear.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): It is one third, two thirds. There is a procedure. One third is paid by the Senate and two thirds by the House of Commons because of the number of persons.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: I am used to attending meetings where there is some order. Could you bring the meeting back to order?

We are talking about the regulations established by the Board of Internal Economy. Does this involve both the House of Commons and the Senate?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Yes, this involves both internal economies. Each Joint Chair goes before the Board of Internal Economy of his or her chamber to table the budget in due time. Two thirds of the budget comes from the House of Commons and one third from the Senate.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Thank you, madam.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): You are welcome. Are you ready to move that, Mr. Bellemare?

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Yes, Madam.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): It is moved by Mr. Bellemare, seconded by Senator Rivest, that at the discretion of the Co-Chairs....

(The motion is carried)

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Motion number 13: Senate authorization to sit during Senate sittings. This is already done. This is a Senate authorization and it was done by the Senate.

Evidence from a previous session: “That, the evidence taken by the Joint-Committee in relation to its study on Part VII of the Official Languages Act during the First Session of the present Parliament, be deemed adduced by the Committee in the current session”.

Thus, we will not have to start over again. We can continue on the basis of the evidence—

Senator Joan Thorne Fraser (De Lorimier, Lib.): There was quite a flurry last week in the Senate regarding two motions that would ensure that evidence heard by committees in the previous session can be brought back before these committees. Is that sufficient for the Senate, or do we have to move a motion before the Senate? What do you think, Senator Beaudoin?

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: I am thinking about it.

Senator Louis Robichaud: I entirely agree with the motion.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): This will avoid having to hear the same evidence over again, but if there were new elements to add—

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: If a problem ever arose with the Senate, we could make a new motion before the Senate.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): The motion is moved by Senator Louis Robichaud, seconded by Senator Beaudoin.

(The motion is carried)

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Motion number 15: adoption of the first report: “That the Committee adopt its first report recommending to the Senate and the House of Commons that quorum be fixed at seven and reduced quorum at four, and that the Joint Chairs be authorized to table this report in their respective chambers”. Mr. Plamondon, seconded by Senator Beaudoin, makes the motion.

(The first report of the committee is adopted)

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Now, who sits on the Steering Committee?

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Both co-chairs and both vice-chairs. That is how it was last year. Is that the reduced quorum?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: No, no. Do you mean the steering committee?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Yes.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: It was both Co-Chairs and both Vice- Chairs.

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The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Mr. Plamondon, the clerk proposes that we add, to those you just mentioned, one member from the opposition of both chambers. That would give a total of six persons.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): This is the same as last year.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: But we must give some names.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Yes, we are about to do so.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Very well.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Now we still need the names of two persons from the opposition of the Senate and the House of Commons who would come to sit on the Steering Committee. Now, for the Senate—

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: Is this the Steering Committee?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Who are the two vice-chairs?

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): If you agree, Senator, we would have someone to represent the Reform Party as vice-chair, Mr. Plamondon from the Bloc Québécois, and yourself for the Progressive Conservative Party.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): And one more from the Liberal Party.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Yes, there would be seven. Including the parliamentary secretary, there would be seven.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: I sit on the Steering Committee of the Legal Affairs Committee. I can assure you that we sit frequently.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: You are making things complicated for this committee.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Order please!

Mr. Louis Plamondon: We will have to sit twice a year.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: Twice a year? If it is twice a year....

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): No, no. Listen, twice a year.... I do not want to be bound to that. We will have to see.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): You could have someone replace you, Senator Beaudoin.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: I could have Senator Rivest replace me?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Senator Rivest has experience.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: I would be happy to replace the Honourable Senator.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): He is very assiduous. As for the steering committee, does all this have to be written down?

(The motion is carried—See Minutes of Proceedings)

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): We will try to arrange a Steering Committee meeting on Thursday morning. Would that be all right?

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Where and at what time?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): I do not know. We have to discuss it.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): In the afternoon or in the morning?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Before we go on to a discussion on the Steering Committee, I should point out that in my opinion the agenda....

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Hold on. Can we make some comments before the meeting is adjourned?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Yes.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Mr. Rivest has one and I have one.

My remark is on how the committee is to operate. When witnesses were invited last year, one of the chairs was far too voluble. We were extremely tolerant, but I would like us to agree on some basic rules before we begin our work this year. When witnesses appear before us, the chair's role is to recognize speakers and to ask any questions they might have when everyone else is finished, as is done in all other committees.

Last year, I invited Mr. Castonguay to appear before us. We did not get a chance to ask him any questions, because the chair asked him questions for 20 minutes. She was not happy to have him here. So I would like us to agree on some basic rules this year. When a witness appears before us, questions will be put to him according to the order we have established. The chair can have five minutes at the end if she has any questions. She should not break into the middle of the discussion to contradict the witness, express a different opinion, or ask him to provide details. The chair's role is to recognize speakers and ensure that the committee operates as it should. Let us agree on that. Her role is not to speak or ask questions instead of committee members. Are we agreed?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): I accept your comments, which are very legitimate. That is also how I believe the committee should operate.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I have no intention of preventing you from speaking, but I would not like you to prevent us from speaking either.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): I would like to say something on this, if I may. I have been newly elected as joint chair, and entirely agree with Mr. Plamondon's remarks, but I do not want to lose my opportunity to speak. I may also have something to say, and I may also have questions to ask. I want everything to be equitable.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Generally, the chair can ask questions when everyone else is finished, and then thank the witness. Is that not right?

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The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): That is right. To facilitate committee operations, I would like the other joint chair and myself to take turns chairing meetings. So when I'm not chairing a meeting, I will have the same status as any other committee member, and will have an opportunity to put my questions when it is the Liberal's turn.

This will also make it easier for other committee members. They will know exactly who is chairing the meeting. The person who calls everyone to order is the chair. That is how I feel we should proceed. I don't know what other joint committees do, but I just wanted to.... Ms. Folco and I have discussed this.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: One of the two joint chairs could speak as a committee member.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): That is right. It would also be easier for other committee members to know exactly who is chairing the meeting.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: Agreed.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Madam Chair, I wanted to bring this up because I was extremely shocked about what happened with Mr. Castonguay, and we have never had a chance to discuss it. I wanted to hear Mr. Castonguay, who had carried out a study on the last census. There had been an interminable debate before we could invite him, but the committee finally did agree to receive him provided that another witness appeared with him. I agreed to that, because I'm open to any witness. However, the second witness was not here at 3:30 p.m., and the chair refused to start the meeting before he arrived. She wanted both witnesses to appear together, not one after the other. The meeting did not begin until 4:15, and a bell for a vote was scheduled for 5 p.m. That means we had 45 minutes for both witnesses, of which the chair took 20.

The second witness had come to table a report on the rights of Black people in Montreal. I don't know why he had to submit the report to the Official Languages Committee. Though I am very sympathetic to this cause, it has nothing to do with us. The whole thing was to prevent Mr. Castonguay from testifying.

I never want this sort of thing to happen again. I'm telling everyone right now. If we invite a witness, we will hear him. I will accept him, we will hear him, and get our seven minutes to question him in turn. We will take the time we need to hear him. I never want this sort of thing to happen again.

Apart from that meeting, the committee worked quite well together, but that meeting was the straw that broke the camel's back. In general, we worked well together. Members got along well. This is why I want to discuss the issue before we even begin our work. I might be sounding a little stringent, but I feel that if this is discussed now we will get along and work together well.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): I am sure of it. Thank you.

Senator Rivest, you have a comment?

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: I would like to inform the committee that Senator Simard has published a paper on official languages. You may not agree with his analysis or his proposals, but his contribution should certainly be noted.

Through the joint chairs and the clerk, I would like the committee to tell Senator Simard that all committee members and all Canadians interested in promoting linguistic duality and official languages highlight his contribution. It is in many ways a remarkable contribution.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): We will certainly discuss it at a meeting of the steering committee, as we decide on our witness list.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: I am glad to hear it, Madam Chair.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): I have copies of the report available if any committee members have not yet received theirs.

The meeting is adjourned.