LANG Committee Meeting

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON OFFICIAL LANGUAGES

COMITÉ MIXTE PERMANENT DES LANGUES OFFICIELLES

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, December 8, 1998

• 1625

[English]

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone (Mount Royal, Lib.)): I call to order this joint meeting of the House and Senate, the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages.

[Translation]

Mrs. Losier-Cool and I welcome you to the committee.

[English]

You are more than welcome here, and I'm sorry we had to keep you waiting.

We're very pleased that you are with us, Mr. Richards, Nancy Beattie, and Erin Mallory. Please feel comfortable. I can tell you that all the members of the committee received your very good and very interesting report, so they're familiar with the content. Feel very comfortable about making your statement, which I presume you have.

Please go ahead.

Mr. Gary Richards (President, Townshippers' Association): Thank you very much.

My name is Gary Richards, and for my sins I'm the president of Townshippers' Association.

With me is Nancy Beattie, one of our past presidents, and Erin Mallory, our executive director.

Townshippers' Association was founded in 1979 as a reaction to the then Bill 22, which subsequently became Bill 101. Initially, Townshippers' Association took that opportunity and that timeframe to take stock of the English-speaking community in the Eastern Townships.

[Translation]

As you well know, after the tabling of Bill 22 and the subsequent passage of Bill 101, the English-speaking community had a difficult time knowing where it stood in the context of Quebecois life and society.

[English]

Over the years, probably especially starting in the last ten years, the Townshippers' Association has grown and evolved into more of a grassroots organization. We take advantage of the fact that we live in a community that has historically been bilingual and bicultural.

Our main concern has been that while we are receiving funds, declining funds, from the federal government, many of our areas of concern are under provincial jurisdiction. As you know, we have a rapidly and continually aging population. As most other, or all other, English-language groups in Montreal or off the Island of Montreal do, we want ACCESSS plans passed so that our seniors will be able to feel more comfortable in their institutions of care.

One of our concerns is with regard to the federal presence in the Eastern Townships and in the province of Quebec. Perhaps in no other province of Canada is there such a competition for the presence of a government, if you wish.

[Translation]

We are working, alongside the French-speaking members of our communities, for associations our area such as the Société Saint-Jean-Baptiste and Moisson Estrie, jointly addressing a number of issues. We believe we can be more useful by focusing on day-to- day activities rather than by staking out positions based on past history. Our aim cannot simply be to ensure the proper functioning of a certain number of things at the federal level with regards to official languages.

[English]

I'm not sure if the federal government in its funding realizes the degree to which the average bilingual, English-speaking citizen in Quebec, through neighbourly activities, can enhance the federal presence.

I'd like to call on Nancy now to continue.

[Translation]

Mrs. Nancy Beattie (Past President; Member of the Executive Committee, Townshippers' Association): Thank you.

Let me start off by going over some of the history of our region, an area which is pretty well unique in the province of Quebec. Unlike other areas of Quebec, the first settlers did not come here from France but from New England. They settled in the area approximately 200 years ago, toward the end of the 18th century. They came to the Eastern Townships in order to make a future for themselves.

• 1630

But I do not wish to dwell on the past. Let me simply say that during the first half of the 19th century, the population swelled with immigrants from Ireland, Scotland and Great Britain as well as numerous habitants from the seigneuries lining the St-Lawrence River.

[English]

With the growth of the English-speaking population, which reached a pinnacle of 90,000 in 1861, the community built itself a network of institutions—schools, churches, hospitals. We even had our own Eastern Townships bank, and a university, which is still present in the region today. However, over the years our population has diminished greatly. We're now approximately 44,000 people, which is equivalent to 7% of the population in the region.

One important factor that needs to be noted about the Eastern Townships is that there is a very long tradition, a spirit of neighbourliness, between the two linguistic communities, between the English- and the French-speaking communities. They are among the best in the province, for sure. This is particularly the case in the more outlying rural areas.

[Translation]

All this to say that the two linguistic communities get along very well, some that we are extremely proud of.

[English]

We as an association try to reflect this linguistic accommodation. As Gary alluded to a little earlier, we take part in a number of activities, a number of events, that further this spirit of cooperation, such as literary contests and the sharing of our annual Townshippers' Day celebration in the fall. Other involvement is certainly with the Société Saint-Jean-Baptiste and a ski loppet, etc. So we do certainly work with the French-speaking community, and we're proud of that fact.

It is important to note also that after the region of Montreal, the Eastern Townships is one of the most bilingual in the country. About 40% of the population speaks both English and French fluently, which is quite an impressive factor.

This has all made for an enriched experience or lifestyle in the region, but we must confess to you that its continuity, its viability, is threatened. We are facing a demographic decline and a decrease in visibility. We are very concerned about that.

Mr. Gary Richards: The English-speaking groups of Quebec entirely—we're not proposing to speak for any of them—all share a tremendous number of common concerns. No, I don't think there are any two English-speaking communities in Quebec that are entirely the same.

In the Eastern Townships we've grown up side by side with our French-speaking neighbours. Those who fled the American Revolution, after which the Irish, the Scottish, and the British came in, were followed by the French Canadians, in 1851, who were fleeing the seigneurial system along the St. Lawrence to come down to work in new manufacturing jobs.

In the Eastern Townships, then, there have been two centuries of this common heritage, if you wish, in terms of anglophones and francophones, and now allophones, all getting along.

There may be an English community in Quebec City and there may be an English community in Huntingdon. All are classic examples of communities that have coexisted peacefully, but the personalities and the historical evolution of all of those communities are not quite the same in any one context.

So it's very important to remind you that you may generously still be debating to give a budget envelope to the minority community in Quebec, but there are concerns and requirements and personalities within those minority communities.

What we try to do in the Eastern Townships, for example— and I have to remind you that we are now talking about a population, quoting Statistics Canada, where,

[Translation]

I think it exact to say that in 1992, 68% of the English-speaking population of the Eastern Townships had an annual income of $20,000 or less.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): I'm glad to see that correction, if I may tell you, because you said $10,000 in your report here, and I was kind of wondering if that was possible.

Mr. Gary Richards: That $10,000 applies to a smaller percentage. I thought I would try to impression you more, Mrs. Finestone.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): I nearly flipped when I saw it, frankly.

• 1635

Senator Joan Fraser (De Lorimier, Lib.): But that's accurate as well?

Mr. Gary Richards: The $10,000 is accurate, but for a smaller percentage. For 68% of the population, it's $20,000 or less. Of course, there aren't recent statistics, because they haven't been published.

I'll give you a classic example.

[Translation]

The Townshippers' Association is a member of Moisson Estrie.

[English]

Moisson Estrie is a communitywide food bank that serves 140 organizations throughout the Eastern Townships. THe day before yesterday, we got a call from three Protestant churches that they needed emergency funding for 47 families—and not only for December. Although everyone is blitzed with Christmas basket funds, people are needy and hungry in the Eastern Townships everywhere.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Every day.

Mr. Gary Richards: Now, what has this to do with language, you might say? It has everything to do with language. Our francophone neighbours now realize that we're not all rich and wealthy. Our francophone neighbours increasingly realize that we want to be good neighbours, and I think by our actions and our activities we reinforce the federal presence in our part, just because it's citizen to citizen.

I'll give you two very brief but pertinent stories.

Over the last year you've all heard about the major battle with Hydro-Québec, with hydro lines going through Richmond. On the other side, people like me, those who live in South Stukley and all the way down to the New Hampshire border, have been blitzed by public hearings for a natural gas pipeline. In our various citizens coalitions, we've had sovereignists and federalists and new resurgents, and farmers with three years of scholarity, and we all realized, above all, that whether we were francophone or anglophone or sovereignists or federalists, we were neighbours first and foremost.

The tone of our message here is to remind you that neighbourly relations, which can enhance the federal presence, are more than just categories of envelopes.

On our 29-person board, we have people who come from as far away as 140 kilometres for a board meeting. Now, if you have a board meeting in December, January, February, or March, you can imagine the logistics complications of that kind of activity. If you then pour that into our health and social services committee, or our stuff with the Saint-Jean-Baptiste Society, or our activities with university students, we try to cover the whole kitchen sink, but the nature of the funding, we feel now—and we're partly to blame in the sense that we accepted that it would be done on a block basis—is one that we severely have to attack. Our funding has gone down about $70,000 in six years.

You must remember that in the Eastern Townships—and I'm sure it's the same in many areas of rural Quebec—there's virtually no industrial or corporate base to go and get lavish grants. It has to come from our fund-raising activities and from some government envelope.

So that's one of our dimensions.

Nancy, do you want to continue?

Ms. Nancy Beattie: Sure.

What this all boils down to is that we really need to ensure the vitality and the continuity of our community. We as an association have certainly done a number of things to do that, to strengthen our community, whether it's encouraging young entrepreneurs, setting up programs to present the region, economically and socially, as a good place to call home. We've undertaken a whole gamut of things.

We try to encourage people to return to the region and we certainly would like to see more people come into the region, to call it home, because as you can see from the numbers, which are attached to the brief, we have lost a sizeable proportion of our population, particularly the youth category. We ourselves have conducted studies that have shown that the population is decreasing.

What this boils down to is that we certainly do need the support of the federal government. As Gary has pointed out, we can help make that presence stronger, if you will, but in a sense it's essential to ensure our vitality and ensure our survival.

• 1640

Mr. Gary Richards: One thing you must realize also is that economically, the English-speaking population of Quebec is tremendously under-represented in both the federal civil service and the provincial civil service. Most young anglophones, and most people of every stripe, have to create their own businesses if they wish to stay in the Eastern Townships.

There's a chronic lack of opportunity. We try to put our thumb in the dike all over. We try to have programs. We try to give advice. We try to help people with résumés, but ultimately, most anglophones now, or most allophones—and increasingly, young francophones—who find jobs or who are in employment situations in the Eastern Townships have had to create their own. The Eastern Townships is sandwiched between Montreal, Quebec City and Boston, in that triangle. It makes it incredibly more apparent that we need a few more resources to come up with some grassroots solutions to some of these problems.

You must remember also that recently we had a comment from a member of the Townshippers. And incidentally, we have 6,000 members out of a population of 45,000. I think that's a fairly healthy show of respect for what we're doing. We had a situation in which a man visited a local branch of, I think, the Bank of Nova Scotia; it doesn't have to be a secret. He had no banking information in English. Well, that's one thing. Probably if you write to the vice-president of public affairs for Scotiabank in Quebec, he'll refer you to the regional vice-president, who'll refer you to the branch manager.

[Translation]

People consider the size of the target population and feel it just isn't large enough. The size of the English-speaking population does not justify the implementation of such a project.

[English]

What we're trying to do is to say to most of our French-speaking neighbours that they should do it for themselves as well, as we would say to a hospital person, if a skier from Boston breaks his leg on Monts Sutton or Mont Orford, that if you're mature as a society, you're not going to in any way efface the French language by offering that person basic medical services in English.

Correspondingly, we have not only chosen to contact the Bank of Nova Scotia in Quebec—hypothetically, because we're trying to contact them all—but we also are asking for their policy about French Canadians who live in other provinces, too. While we feel our evolution is different in that we've been there for over 200 years, we feel that any action we take should somehow be relative to what our French-speaking neighbours are doing in other provinces.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Mr. Richards, what you have to say is very serious, and is of concern to all of us, but because of the time constraints we're under—there is a vote in the House—it would be important, perhaps, for you to outline your particularly precarious financial position. Explain to us why there is this lack of understanding by the Heritage staff—and you're not the first group to tell us about this—and insensitivity to the differences regionally than urban and rural, and why there is this contrast in your experience with HRDC.

Could you explain the difference in the approach and the staffing of HRDC versus Heritage Canada, please? If you look at page 11 of your brief, it would perhaps refresh your memory as to what you were saying.

Mr. Gary Richards: One of the things, Mrs. Finestone, about being president of Townshippers is that we all come in at a given time; we don't necessarily inherit the whole history of a file.

First of all, from what I gather—and correct me if I'm not quite accurate; I've been president for three months—the federal government decided to inform, through whatever agencies of the federal government, the minority groups in Quebec that if they wanted to continue to receive a certain amount of funding, this is the way the funding had to be allocated. There is a certain amount of core funding, which, as you note, has diminished substantially, and there is also special project funding for projects that are evaluated.

Townshippers initially wasn't a signee to that. I don't know how many were, how many weren't.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): We all know that.

Mr. Gary Richards: Oh, okay.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): What we want to know is what is the difference between working with HRDC—and perhaps, Erin, you're in a position to answer that—and Heritage?

Mr. Gary Richards: I said at the very beginning that we each have our own personality. Each group and each region has evolved differently. We are incredibly, overwhelmingly volunteer-based, and we can't spend 30% of our time creating projects and lobbying for them.

• 1045

Ms. Nancy Beattie: I think one of the big misconceptions we have encountered amongst some of the federal government departments is that there is a lack of understanding of how the English-speaking community in the province of Quebec composes itself.

There is a complete lack of realization that there is no provincial overarching organization, that there are indeed eight regional associations. There are seven sector groups, and we do represent our own individual areas. We have different interests.

The realities in Montreal are not the same as they are for our rural and very dispersed community. That is something that I think needs to be taken into account. Obviously there is not that awareness. There does seem to be a tendency for a lack of education amongst some of these federal government departments.

I mean, we are not Alliance Quebec. This is one of the big misconceptions. The assumption is that money is put into Alliance Quebec and that the entire community receives services from that centre, which is simply not the case. It is certainly something we wanted to point out to the committee today.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Thank you.

Would you care to wrap up so that we can start some questioning, please?

Mr. Gary Richards: Well, to quote a well-known poet, we would like you to help give us the winning conditions to do our jobs better.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): I can tell you, I'd love to see us do the winning conditions.

Mr. Goldring.

Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.): Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you for your presentation, ladies and gentlemen.

I have a question on the funding. The chart on the back of your brief indicates an overall average per capita funding of $2.33. Is that for the province of Quebec or is that per English speaker? How is that equated?

Mr. Gary Richards: It's per English-speaking resident if you tally up the approximately 800,000 allophones or anglophones in Quebec. That's how it's based.

We want to make it very clear, though, that if we get $2.50 a head, and someone in the Yukon gets $363, we don't wish to equate the two, because they're not equatable.

Mr. Peter Goldring: Why not?

Mr. Gary Richards: Because the francophone members of a community in the Yukon are in much greater need for certain things that they've never had. So we're not asking that we necessarily get $363 a head. That would be overkill.

Ms. Nancy Beattie: Might I add something to that?

From when these figures were first drawn up, and from when the federal government first assigned its funding priorities and how it allots different funding, I think something has changed in the English community. At that time, we had institutions, we had a lot of community organizations, and a lot of community groups. With the decline in our community, a lot of these associations have disappeared.

Some of that funding allotment was that we didn't need the funding, because it was assumed that we had these groups. But we don't have those groups any more for that community support.

Mr. Peter Goldring: But don't you feel it's a pretty wide discrepancy from $2.33? You are looking for more funding for the community. With this funding, does your group lobby the provincial government for change at all, for, say, sign regulations? Do you lobby the provincial government or is it purely instructive to the community?

Mr. Gary Richards: First of all, we don't deal with political parties, we deal with governments. Since our stated policy is to be “un bon voisin”, or a good neighbour, to start with, to offset some of our difficulties, such as ACCESSS plans in English to basic medical services, we have met with the trade union council, because frequently it's a labour problem. By virtue of Bill 101, you have the right to work in your own language. And we try to convince our francophone neighbours that we've never known a francophone, who, by knowing a second or third language, was much less a francophone.

There is such polarization of opinions in Quebec society that we're trying to spread our web through just good neighbourly relations.

But, yes, we have met with every elected provincial person from the last two elections to try to have the law enforced concerning the ACCESSS plans.

Mr. Peter Goldring: Would your group have lodged, say, complaints, observations, or instructions to the provincial government in any organized fashion? What is your group's opinion of the language laws in Quebec? Because if they are being perceived to be restrictive, is this not one of the ongoing problems that will have to be faced by funding, to preserve the English language, if you like?

Mr. Gary Richards: Yes and no, sir. We feel that whatever changes come to the language laws in Quebec will have to be recommended by the greater majority community.

• 1650

So we feel, being neighbourly and being involved in many spheres of daily life in Quebec, that our presence, our contribution, to the degree we have the resources to do it, will be beneficial for the federal government, because the English contribution will more firmly re-emerge on a daily basis in Quebec society.

Mr. Peter Goldring: You say in your brief that bilingualism isn't being accepted in Quebec. Is this your feeling, that Quebec is more acceptant of being unilingual?

Ms. Nancy Beattie: I should explain some of our history here. The association supports, and has supported, the language laws in Quebec in terms of there being nothing wrong with supporting the language, the French spoken language. We recognize that we are a minority within a majority French-speaking province. However, we completely disagree with and abhor the way in which the spirit of this law has been applied.

Mr. Peter Goldring: Yes, because you make the reference that English is not an official language.

Ms. Nancy Beattie: No, it is not an official language in the province of Quebec.

Mr. Gary Richards: But I have to say one thing, and it may not be what you want to hear. My identify as a Canadian is that I've been blessed by where I grew up, in the Eastern Townships. I've been speaking English and French all my life, and it's a joy as a Canadian.

The Townshippers' Association strongly feels that if Quebec were to become totally bilingual again, it would result in the demise of the French language within a decade. We don't want to see that. But the English-language community is so isolated in terms of its credibility that we want to get on the playing field and let our French-speaking neighbours know that we are good citizens and good neighbours. Only then will they feel secure enough, we feel, to start reversing some of these language tendencies.

Mr. Peter Goldring: So how do we square that with Premier Bouchard outside the country stating that Montreal is bilingual? How do we square that?

Mr. Gary Richards: You know, it's funny. We have made tremendous contacts with recently defeated PQ officials. We feel that the English-speaking population of Quebec can be Quebec's best salespeople outside the province, and in consequence, the best salespeople for Canada.

Many of us in the Eastern Townships who own our own businesses—they're small businesses, and they're getting smaller because we do too much volunteer work—feel that we can sell Quebec outside the province of Quebec, or outside Canada, better than Mr. Bouchard and Mr. Landry put together, and in French countries. We work there, we live there, we feel it. It's our area.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Last question, Peter.

Mr. Peter Goldring: How would you compare your group's feeling with those of the Chateauguay Valley English-Speaking Peoples Association? Where do the allophones fit in linguistically?

Mr. Gary Richards: As far as I'm concerned, everyone fits in linguistically, whether you're a member of the first nations community or whatever. The predominant language and visibility of Quebec is French. I have no problems accepting that. The Townshippers' Association in no way feels effaced.

But we do have a history and a sense of belonging there, and there are certain basic things that, for the good of whatever government is in Quebec, and for the good of the French population in general, should be reversed. We feel that unless we are on the playing field and have the resources to be effective on that playing field, we're losing the battle, and the federation is losing the battle.

Mr. Peter Goldring: Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Thank you very much. Monsieur Plamondon.

[Translation]

Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, BQ): Thank you for appearing before the committee. In answering Mr. Goldring, you said things that were both honest and true, such as when you stated that if it were not for the existence of a language law, the French-speaking community of Quebec would itself be endangered. In North America, only 3% of the population is French-speaking and if we did not have a language law to defend our culture— Of course, it must not be done in a way that is detrimental to the position of another linguistic minority. I admit that certain adjustments should be made, adjustments that you have yourself rightly and objectively pointed out.

I know that several members of the English language media are here and that they have a one-dimensional view of Quebec English- speaking population whereas the English-speaking community, like the French-speaking community, contains a great diversity of opinion. Politically, and this also goes for the parties, francophones are split 6 to 4 between proponents of sovereignty and federalists. The same is true of the English-speaking people of Quebec who often are not of one mind concerning the appropriate way of approaching the federal government or the provincial government.

Allow me, in passing, a brief remark for the benefit of Mr. Goldring.

• 1655

As a result of the last provincial elections, an English- speaking Quebecer was elected to the National Assembly as a member of the Parti québécois. I'm referring here to Mr. David Payne. Does that not show that in Quebec—you must admit it, and then there are others like myself—, you will even find certain anglophones who are for sovereignty. This brings to mind the case of that English- speaking Quebecer who harangued Mr. Chrétien. They almost came to blows. Well there was an English-speaking habitant of the Outaouais region who was prosovereignty and militantly so.

All this to say that there is a diversity of opinion among anglophones and it is a good thing that you are giving voice to another stream of opinion and making sure your point of view is heard. Let me add, Madam Chair, just for the sake of information, that, in the last referendum, between 70,000 and 75,000 English speakers or persons speaking a language other than French or English voted "yes". That is 5% of the population. Considering 95% voted "no", 5% voted "yes", is that not so? That makes about 70,000 people.

The Joint Chair (the hon. Sheila Finestone): You have your own way of analyzing these results but that is not quite the point.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: And yet—

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool (Tracadie, Lib.)): The question was too complicated—

Mr. Louis Plamondon: So there you have the facts such as you have described them. You are a minority in Quebec—and I thank you for admitting it—that is in less danger than the French-speaking minority outside Quebec. Even the Commissioner of Official Languages agrees. I think that everyone in Canada recognizes that if there is an endangered minority it is the French-speaking one. That of course does not mean that we should not also help the English-speaking minority of Quebec, quite the contrary.

The federal government has cut back on a great deal of its support to minority groups and those cut-backs which have hurt you have also caused a great deal of harm to French-speaking minorities outside Quebec.

I am now in the situation of having to advise the government as to what to do. Analyzing the situation of English-speaking people in Quebec and of French-speaking people outside Quebec, I must conclude that the French-speaking people outside Quebec are in a more difficult situation and that is why I believe that it would be preferable to put the available funding there rather than elsewhere.

That is to a certain extent why there is that differential in the amount of per capita funding; depending on the area, you have a figure of $2, $5 or even—and I am referring to the Northwest Territories—$400 per person. The differences can be easily explained. None of this was decided haphazardly. All this was based on a statistical analysis made by Statistics Canada, by experts who advised the government of the day, be it Liberal, Conservative or of any other stripe. The same goes for our way of analyzing the situation.

With regard to health care, there are only two provinces in Canada where, by law, health care services must be offered in the patient's own language: New Brunswick and Quebec. In the other provinces, statute does not require that French-speaking persons be granted access to care in their own language. Just see the battle that is being waged by the Montfort Hospital in Ontario.

According to the latest census figures the English-speaking minority of Quebec has remained stable. According to current trends, it will remain stable over the next five years. The other linguistic minority, on the other hand, will, over the next five years, decrease sharply, even in New Brunswick.

You easily understand then that, given a certain level of funding, my priorities would lie with French-speaking people outside Quebec. If, however, the money is there, I will be very happy to—

The Joint Chair (the hon. Sheila Finestone): Did you have a question?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: No, but I would have to put that in the context of—

Mr. Gary Richards: There won't be enough time for that—

Mr. Louis Plamondon: We'll have to take time because I would like to discuss that with you.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Do you have a question?

[Translation]

Mr. Gary Richards: I would like to say to the members of the committee that I hope for your sake that the logic you are using will not be applied to French-speaking public servants from Quebec working for the federal government.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: How do you mean that?

Mr. Gary Richards: Because when you say that anglophones are particularly favoured, you are showing the mind set you grew up with. It is no more complicated than that. We all wish the very best for French-speaking citizens of New Brunswick and Ontario. We must say, though, that in Quebec we have to a large extent contributed to the funding of our own institutions, our hospitals and our universities.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Yes.

Mr. Gary Richards: Can you imagine Camille Laurin or Louise Beaudoin saying that next year the province will give the English- speaking community its own hospital since English-speaking Quebecers are good tax paying citizens?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Yes, but you already have the hospitals.

Mr. Gary Richards: We built them ourselves and that's why we have them. We do not owe them to a tolerant elite—

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I never said that you had not built them yourselves.

• 1700

Mr. Gary Richards: No, but it requires a great deal of fine- tuning to ensure that our network, which originated nearly 200 years ago, will survive those very substantial cut-backs. We want English-speaking and French-speaking citizens to enjoy the same rights. You, on the other hand, are comparing apples and oranges. If the English-speaking population manages to remain stable over the next five years, it will simply be by virtue of a huge in-flow of assimilated persons.

[English]

The common thing is that they all speak English. The cultural shift of the English population is different too. It's not just a statistic. We want the federal government's help to be good citizens in both English and French, in both official languages. We can do so much more for our French speaking co-citizens in another province by being enervated in our own.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Thank you very much.

[Translation]

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I would have liked to go on since, it seems to me, we are both attempting to say the same thing.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Mr. Plamondon, you will find out if you're saying the same thing after others have had a chance. Thank you very much.

Senator Robichaud.

[Translation]

Senator Louis J. Robichaud (L'Acadie—Acadia, Lib.): I very much appreciated what was said by our two witnesses. They described a situation which is very similar to that of French-speaking minorities outside Quebec. I have personally experienced that sort of situation, I am still experiencing it. It is hard to endure. You have come before the committee to request that the Canadian Heritage Department increase it's funding to you and I think you are entirely correct in that. French-speaking minorities are making the same request and they too are perfectly right to do so.

You are right to say that in your region anglophones and francophones live side by side in harmony. I know that for a fact. I knew a married couple from Huntington that was perfectly bilingual and harboured no ill feelings towards anyone. One of the two is French-speaking and the other English-speaking. I wonder if that harmony that prevails in your area finds its source in principles that I am familiar with.

For example, in your area, say you have in a group one English-speaker and four French-speakers, or one English-speaker and nine French-speakers, will the conversation take place in French or in English?

Mr. Gary Richards: Ten years ago, it probably would have been in English, but for the last seven or eight years, the conversation undoubtedly takes place entirely in French. That's what I usually see in the Eastern Townships when I go there on business or when I have the opportunity of meeting with students. When both languages are represented by two or three people, then it will be a bit like a water tap with a mixture of hot and cold. Everyone is sharing and speaking.

[English]

They're not even aware of what language they're speaking, they're so easy about it.

[Translation]

If you have five or six anglophones speaking with two francophones, then, out of deference, the conversation will usually take place in French.

Senator Louis Robichaud: I'm very happy to hear that because in other areas it's the opposite that is true.

Mr. Gary Richards: That is the way it is.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): How do you maintain a cultural link, then, if you're doing that?

Mr. Gary Richards: In what sense do you mean “cultural link”?

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Well, you said—and it's not my place to do this—that language and culture are synonymous in the sense of expression and so on, and I just wondered how that fit in with Senator Robichaud's question.

[Translation]

Senator Louis Robichaud: I was pleased by your response.

[English]

Mr. Gary Richards: I grew up in Sherbrooke, speaking French, because I was embarrassed that a lot of my co-citizens didn't, or wouldn't, speak French. I made it a point of honour to speak French as often as I could.

• 1705

For as long as I can remember now, in recent memory, I don't even think we think about that. We just talk to each other. Obviously, most francophones I know, even the most nationalist, when they're talking about getting their car ready for winter driving it's “la christ de clutch”, or, if they're doing something else, it's, “il faut booster cela”.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool (Tracadie, Lib.)): Are your co-citizens mostly bilingual, as you are?

Mr. Gary Richards: In our association there are people who have lived in rural regions who have never had any need. There are farmers who are getting their applications for dairy quotas and this and that who have always had a passing knowledge of French. There are others, like me, who have lived in more urban areas and have been more integrated into both neighbourhoods and who have easily spoken both languages, with pleasure.

If an English senior has never mastered the French language, that English senior still has the same right to be treated in English in a hospital. The next generation won't have that same problem, but we owe to them dignity in their care.

Senator Louis Robichaud: I'm very happy with the answers that were given to that question. To prove that I'm bilingual too, I will ask—

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): In a minute.

[English]

Senator Louis Robichaud: Yes, but I didn't have my time. It was taken by the chairman.

[Translation]

Mr. Gary Richards: I think that if we could just set the example in the Eastern Townships, we would manage to wake up a lot of the communities outside Quebec where there is a balance between English and French-speaking people. The English-speaking Canadians of other provinces should become aware of the fact that in North America the French language is not in a strong position and that they should work to strengthen it since it is a part of our Canadian identity.

[English]

Senator Louis Robichaud: You have stated that your problems are mainly economic problems. We understand that; you're not the only area that suffers from that deficiency.

You also stated that a lot of your people have had to leave the area because of economic conditions. What proportion of the people leaving the area are anglos, and what proportion are francophones?

Mr. Gary Richards: The Eastern Townships is a four seasons tourism area, so obviously a lot of young francophones leave for economic opportunity elsewhere also, because there are no public service jobs in either government any more, and the job creation situations aren't exactly rampant.

We as an association do our best. We have a project that's evolving now—and it takes time, because we're spread out over 120,000 kilometres—called, “Bonjour Neighbour”, which we're going to plan systematically.

For example, we'll get university students from Université de Sherbrooke to come and meet English university students and have English university students write their résumés for them in English, and the French students write, for all the English students, their résumés in French for them. They can meet, they can exchange, they can decide on a variety of things.

Then maybe some of the teachers on our board will get together and correct the grammar in both. But that's a whole other dimension.

So students make up our lifeblood in terms of continuity and a re-enhancement of our community.

At the other level, you have an overwhelming preponderance of seniors who are in care situations. We're asking that they be served in a basic way in their own language.

Underneath that, Townshippers is involved in a literary competition with the Saint-Jean-Baptiste Society.

I'll give you an example. The Magnola Mine is going to establish itself in Asbestos, Quebec, sometime in the next year and a half if it can get by the environmental hearings. Noranda Mines were bringing a lot of their cadres supérieurs into the Eastern Townships. They wanted the Townshippers as an association to form a structure of accueil, of welcome, for these people, and to introduce them to the English-language heritage of the Eastern Townships.

• 1710

Our first reaction was to invite the Saint-Jean-Baptiste Society to join us to talk about the French Canadians who have been in the region since 1850 as well.

So we always think of these bilingual, bicultural things because it's ingrained in us. It's part of us. We can't possibly exist without a strong collaboration with our French-speaking neighbours. It's just out of the question.

Senator Louis Robichaud: I'd like to have an answer to the question.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): This will be your last question.

Senator Louis Robichaud: Are there more anglophones leaving the area for economic reasons than francophones?

Ms. Nancy Beattie: May I answer that question?

Certainly there are probably equal proportions leaving the area because of economic reasons, but when you are looking at the English-speaking community, I think you also have to take into account the fact that because of the diminishing community, while there are links between the two communities, English-speaking individuals, English-speaking youth, do not always feel the ties are that strong to the community. So they're leaving, because they are not feeling necessarily at home. There is that aspect, too, that should not be overlooked.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Thank you very much. Monsieur Rivest.

[Translation]

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest (Stadacona, PC): The minority issue also has a very important legal and political dimension. We should not forget, when we mention Quebec, that there is Montreal and then there is Quebec, including the Eastern Townships.

From what I understand of your evidence, you would like federal funding to take into account what actually goes on in the various communities in your case within the English-speaking community of the Eastern Townships. Do you all feel that the funding available for English-speaking minorities in Quebec generally goes to organizations such as Alliance Quebec?

Considering the over-politicization we have seen with Alliance Quebec and the whole slew of court actions and legal procedures, less money will be available since legal fees will have to be met. There are, furthermore, anglophones who are out there in the field, English-speaking Quebecois who live in the area and who need help. This will result in a decrease in the funding available for people who truly are in a minority situation. In its funding, the Canadian Heritage Department focuses mainly on legal actions such as those undertaken by Alliance Quebec because of various media and political considerations. It takes hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees to challenge a law. Do you agree with this?

Mr. Gary Richards: I honestly believe that it is so. If an association from Montreal gets funding in order to train a research staff, we ourselves will not have any chance of evolving since we don't necessarily partake of the same values.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: That's it. It is important to stress that before the committee.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): It's called diversity of opinion, it's called diversity of the country, and it's called pluralism.

Mr. Gary Richards: You know, we have to have fund-raising events to survive.

[Translation]

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: The department should fund the right people, those who act in a concrete way, instead of supporting those who are waging political battles. Political battles more properly belong to political parties. That's what I wished to stress.

[English]

Mr. Gary Richards: I feel Senator Rivest has a very valid point there.

[Translation]

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: That is what is happening.

Mr. Gary Richards: True.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: I went through the same thing with the English-speaking population of that area when I was a member of the National Assembly in Quebec: we never got anything because the department channelled a lot of its funding to legal challenges introduced by Alliance Quebec.

[English]

Mr. Gary Richards: You see, what we want to do, Mrs. Finestone, is convince our French-speaking neighbours—

[Translation]

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: There is the law firm—

[English]

Mr. Gary Richards: —that we have a lot to contribute to Quebec society, that most projects I've seen coming out of the Eastern Townships where francophones and anglophones have been together on their creation are very sophisticated, very profound, and very multicultural.

We have so much to give back to Quebec society and to the federal government, but we're sitting there, marginalized, in the bleachers. We're kind of saying, well, this isn't good, and so on.

The other day, on November 11, I was walking down University Street in Montreal. I crossed over St. Catherine just as the old veterans were straggling down, 55 years after the end of the war. I was thinking, you know, we've been sitting there as an English community, flushed with pride about our activities in two world wars and the Korean War and everything else, but now we have to get back to work at being good Quebeckers at the same time.

We can't sort of say, “Tut-tut, this isn't right”. We need some resources to do us all proud and to maybe develop models that minority communities could use in other provinces. We can't even breathe right now—

• 1715

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): How is the job creation model working for you? Now that manpower training has been returned to the province, is that a problem for you, or is that working well for you?

Ms. Erin Mallory (Executive Director, Townshippers' Association): It's difficult. The transfer has been slow. We have worked with the other regional associations in discussing how it's working in our regions, and everybody seems to be having some difficulties. It's something we're all certainly keeping a close eye on.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Thank you.

[Translation]

Mr. Rivest, you still have two minutes.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: I yield to David.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): No, David will go next time.

Senator Fraser, please.

Senator Joan Fraser: I would like to add my voice to those who are congratulating you for an excellent brief. I don't remember the last time I saw such a succinct presentation of both the strengths and the weaknesses of the situation of the English community in Quebec, particularly outside Montreal but not only outside Montreal.

In my experience, the balance you strike reflects the view of a decisive majority of English Quebeckers—constructive engagement, not destructive disengagement.

I have two specific questions. First, could you please describe for this committee the state of your relations, or otherwise, with Alliance Quebec?

Mr. Gary Richards: We have only gone to Alliance Quebec conventions as observers for the last five years. I joined the Townshippers board last year, and by the middle of the year we started to discuss pulling out of the Alliance Quebec umbrella entirely. This was way before we knew who was going to be vying for president the following spring.

Because it was such a serious issue, we vetted it thoroughly over three consecutive board meetings. We finally decided to pull the plug, if you wish, around last April, but out of courtesy for the process, we informed Mrs. Middleton-Hope at the time that this was our decision but we weren't going to do anything to in any way affect their leadership convention.

So we've been disassociated from Alliance Quebec. As an English community, we all share common concerns, but as to the approach of solving them, as to a whole paquet de choses, it's just not the same ball game at all for us.

Ms. Nancy Beattie: Perhaps I can make just one technical point to clarify that.

When the Alliance Quebec constitution was drawn up, Townshippers was already in existence. We're an older organization than that. Included in the possible members were the list of the existing regional associations, and our name was certainly included.

We had made a previous attempt to have our name removed from that, because for many years we have not functioned as anything other than observers. As with all the other regional associations, we share information and work together on common concerns, but that's where it stops.

So as Gary was explaining, we were finally about to carry out with the technical withdrawal last spring.

Senator Joan Fraser: Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Perhaps you could clarify further, in regard to Mrs. Fraser's question, whether or not the funding is directed to Alliance Quebec and you are a subcontractor. I think you have to be clear how your funding is impinged upon by the relationship.

Ms. Nancy Beattie: Part of the problem is that there is a misconception that Alliance Quebec provides services for the entire province, but Alliance Quebec is a sister organization. It does have chapters in particular regions. It does receive the bulk of the funding. I think the figure is around $1 million.

I am assuming that the assumption on the part of the federal government is that it is providing services. It does not provide us services. We do not go to them.

Senator Joan Fraser: Second, I would like to address, like others before me, this question of the misunderstanding of the situation of the English community in Quebec.

You have, in a sense, compressed some of the difficulties here, because many of them have to do with relations with the provincial administration. However, in connection with the federal administration, I too was really struck by your remarks about Canadian Heritage and the misunderstanding there in a ministry that should have complete understanding of all minority communities.

What have you done to try to dispel this misunderstanding, and what has been the result of your efforts?

Mr. Gary Richards: We wrote a letter—just like the man who wrote a letter trying to stop World War II.

As I say, different board members come to the game at certain times, so if I don't understand the sequence, I hope my colleagues will correct me.

• 1720

When I became president of Townshippers in September, the director general of Heritage was there, and he invited me to come in and have a chat with him. I tried, on two different occasions. He has a busy schedule, and I'm in my own business. The last time we were supposed to present here—I think it was a week ago, or two weeks ago—I called him up again to inform him first-hand. You know, this wasn't a clandestine end run.

We have written, because all our projects were turned down, to—

Senator Joan Fraser: All?

Mr. Gary Richards: Yes. All of them.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): HRD stuff, small business development—

Mr. Gary Richards: We're talking Canadian Heritage here.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): No, but I want to know, when you say “turned down”, is the illness and the lack of understanding elsewhere than Heritage?

Mr. Gary Richards: I'll let Nancy explain that.

Ms. Nancy Beattie: We were referring specifically to Heritage.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Fine. Okay, please continue.

Ms. Nancy Beattie: I mean, there is project funding from other federal departments. There is the HRDC packet, which I'm not personally familiar with.

What we're referring to specifically with the Canadian Heritage funding is that for the past three or four years, we have submitted projects that we felt met with the priorities as established by the Quebec Community Groups Network, with which I suspect most of you are familiar. They were repeatedly turned down, even though we certainly felt they did meet those priorities.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): For the purposes of the record, could you specify one example of a project like that? Because that made The Globe and Mail last week, the different projects that have been turned down.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): While you're thinking about that—

Ms. Nancy Beattie: No, we have the list here.

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Ladies and gentlemen, I'm afraid I'm going to have to interrupt. There's a piece of business, and then we'll go back to Senator Fraser and Mr. Price. We have the contingency of the bells, and we have to leave.

This is the piece of business. The steering committee passed a budget and a plan of action. As we are constrained, would you accept the decision of the steering committee? There are just two other members in here. Would you accept that, and would you accept a motion that would move forward our action plan and our budget?

Senator Joan Fraser: I so move.

(Motion agreed to—See Minutes of Proceedings)

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Thank you very much.

Back to you, Mr. Richards.

Just note, please, that Senator Fraser has another two minutes, and you have two minutes.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: What time is the vote?

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): At 5.30 p.m., so we're in a big hurry.

Senator Joan Fraser: I was asking you, Mr. Richards, about the relations between you and Heritage. You were talking about how you'd been in touch with the director general, hoping to get together.

Mr. Gary Richards: I didn't receive a turndown; it's just that our schedules didn't cross at the right times. What I'm saying is that we're appearing here today and had every intention of having a meeting with them beforehand, because we wanted to tell them about some of the issues we were going to be raising.

You see, the problem all of you have, I feel, and my government has, is an affirmative presence in Quebec society. Most of the largely francophone federal civil servants I meet in Quebec—and we've spoken to management groups and everything to explain who we are—have a problem of coming forward with their own identity, getting out of the closet as salespeople for the fed...

There's such a predominance of blue opinions, it's a real problem for the federal government. You have this powerful fabric of Quebec society now, which is all united, from mandarins to trade unions to the university movement, and to inject the federal presence with, in many instances, francophones who don't want to admit too strongly that there are still federalists in Quebec...

I feel that by engaging in dialogue with both communities, we can enhance tremendously the federal presence, because it comes from the dreaded anglophones, the people who have always been shirty and standoffish and everything else. We just need to get...

The Joint Chair (Mrs. Sheila Finestone): Mr. Richards, the members of the House are going to leave. We're looking forward to seeing you again. The Senate is staying, so you can continue your questioning.

Mr. Price and Mr. Paradis both regret—they just told me—but they will see you in the Eastern Townships in the month of April. At that time we will know better from you what's going on. Please leave the information they require.

I hope we get to the vote on time.

• 1725

[Translation]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Goodbye.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Senator Fraser, you may continue.

[Translation]

Senator Rivest, have you any further questions? No? Mrs. Fraser.

[English]

Senator Joan Fraser: Perhaps I can take another moment or two, since we've lost some of our colleagues.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): You've been interrupted many times. You have a moment or two.

Mr. Gary Richards: You wanted an example. The different groups got together with Heritage, because everyone understood they had no option but to get together with Heritage, to create criteria for selection.

We submitted several projects, one of which was a showcase of township's history and culture. It enhanced development along certain lines in only one of the five priority sectors. In other words, 19 participants are deciding what our priorities are to be in the Eastern Townships, representing the whole sector.

It received a ranking of 5.5 out of 12 possible points, which was less than some other projects ranked. Therefore, due to the limited funds, this project could not be funded.

There is a variety of things like that in different spheres of activity.

What we have to do is to take back the base of our operations. I did some work recently—I have a small communications business—for the first nations. They were doing the same thing about cuts to their block funding for dental care. One community has a higher incidence of diabetes, which means bad teeth as well, and another community has something else.

Well, it's the same thing with the English communities in the Eastern Townships. We're not a French-speaking community in Saskatchewan that needs money to save the old parish hall, or that needs money for basic French-language instruction. We've been there for a couple of centuries. We want do do it in concert with our French-speaking neighbours, because we represent together a community. If we can set some kind of standards, it would benefit the federal system. These standards could be applied maybe to other provinces, because it would be a whole new kind of breadth of context.

Ms. Nancy Beattie: If I might, I can clarify one point that was made.

In terms of the priorities in which these projects are ranked, in the Quebec Community Groups Network, which discusses these priorities, there is a management working committee that actually evaluates this. The five members of that board recommend to Canadian Heritage, who in turn recommends to the minister. That's the trajectory of the projects.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): One last question.

Senator Joan Fraser: On the under-representation of anglos in the federal public service in Quebec, what have you done about that? What is the core problem? What have you done about it, and what has happened?

We all know what the numbers show at the end, but I'm trying to understand the process to try to improve things here.

Mr. Gary Richards: I think Erin could explain. She's been here a bit longer.

Ms. Erin Mallory: We've worked for several years with federal government departments in the Eastern Townships on that very issue. We would meet with them on a regular basis and discuss what some of the challenges were, ways that we could work together, helping, if they had job openings, to promote those through our community and that kind of thing. Those meetings went very well.

We stopped having those a few years ago, when the government was downsizing, and we haven't started those up again, although maybe that's something we should be doing.

We've certainly been meeting with some federal government managers recently, discussing possible ways of working together with them, of having them inform the community of their services, that type of thing.

Senator Joan Fraser: And you find that you have a constructive response? I mean, after downsizing there aren't that many jobs anywhere, but at least in terms of fundamental attitudes and commitment and policy, do you find that the response is appropriate?

Ms. Erin Mallory: Yes.

Senator Joan Fraser: So it's between policy and realization.

Ms. Erin Mallory: Yes.

Senator Joan Fraser: Thank you.

Ms. Erin Mallory: There certainly seems to be a lot of goodwill on the part of the managers in terms of trying to do something about the situation. I know it was over a period of several years that we met. At the beginning, I think things were difficult, but things certainly improved and some departments were certainly doing very well in terms of hiring English speakers.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: Do you have a problem getting services from the federal department in English in Quebec, notwithstanding the fact that most people there are French Canadian, generally? It happens sometimes, I expect?

• 1730

[Translation]

Mr. Gary Richards: In the Eastern Townships, the use of the French language is automatic. It happens so often that federal public servants are sometimes given to say:

[English]

“Look, you really could say it in English, if you want”. It's just kind of a reaction.

We met another elected official earlier today, and we immediately started explaining our problem in French. He said, “Look, you can say it in English, if you want”. So, no, we've not received any—

When I attended a managers' meeting, there was a gentlemen from Official Languages who was saying that of the 300 complaints—I think I'm right in quoting that—they had received last year, 150 had come from anglophones, which meant that the proportion of anglophone complaints was much higher.

Townshippers receives a lot of things—for example, a complaint from a citizen who perhaps wasn't treated politely by a provincial police person, or from a person who couldn't get his driving licence properly in French, or what have you. So we try to set the tone right. But I don't think we've ever—correct me if I'm wrong—received a complaint about rude federal services not in English in the townships.

Or have we?

Ms. Erin Mallory: We have had a few.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: Sometimes it can happen, then, but it's not the rule.

Ms. Nancy Beattie: No, and there certainly are means to deal with it. There is a complaints procedure. If people do inform us, we encourage people to follow that procedure, and we help them do that.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: Okay.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): I wish to thank my colleagues of the committee and all of you.

I am a French-speaking New-Brunswicker and I have long believed and often said that we, in New Brunswick, shall be happy when the French-speaking population there has all that the English- speaking population of Quebec already has. Today, you have shown us the other side of the coin. Do not forget, however, that we, the French-speaking minorities, have sometimes had, and still do have to use a large part of our budget to take a case right up to the Supreme Court. You just said that it is only in very rare cases that it will be up to the federal government—

Having said that, perhaps we will have the opportunity to meet again in April after we have heard from all the other groups. This time, we will be going to Sherbrooke even though senator Rivest does not want to go there since he doesn't like to take the bus. We will get him there by car.

Once again, thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.