LIPA Committee Meeting
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37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION
Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament
COMMITTEE EVIDENCE
CONTENTS
Thursday, February 7, 2002
| Á | 1100 |
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The Joint Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Jean-François Pagé) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West--Nepean, Lib.) |
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Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Canadian Alliance) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.)) |
| Á | 1105 |
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The Joint Chair (Senator John G. Bryden (New Brunswick, Lib.)) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Bélanger |
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Mr. Bryden |
| Á | 1110 |
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Ms. Bennett |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
| Á | 1115 |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Gagnon (Champlain) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Gagnon (Champlain) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Gagnon (Champlain) |
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Ms. Bennett |
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The Hon. Oliver |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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The Joint Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Denis Robert) |
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Ms. Catterall |
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The Hon. Bryden |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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Mr. Bélanger |
| Á | 1120 |
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Mr. Bryden |
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Senator Vivienne Poy (Toronto, Lib.) |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Denis Robert) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Bryden |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
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Ms. Bennett |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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Mr. Bryden |
| Á | 1125 |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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Mr. Bryden |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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Mr. Bryden |
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Ms. Catterall |
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The Hon. Bryden |
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Mr. Bélanger |
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Mr. Bryden |
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Mr. Bélanger |
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Mr. Bryden |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Bélanger |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Gagnon (Champlain) |
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Mr. Bélanger |
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Mr. Gagnon (Champlain) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Bryden |
| Á | 1130 |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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Mr. Bryden |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Bryden |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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Mr. Bryden |
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Mr. Gagnon (Champlain) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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Mr. Gagnon (Champlain) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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Mr. Bryden |
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Mr. Bélanger |
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Mr. Bryden |
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Senator Vivienne Poy |
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Mr. Bryden |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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Mr. Bélanger |
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The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden) |
CANADA
Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament |
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COMMITTEE EVIDENCE
Thursday, February 7, 2002
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Á 
(1100)
[Translation]
The Joint Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Jean-François Pagé): In accordance with Standing Order 106(1) of the House of Commons, our first order of business is the election of a co-chair.
[English]
I am ready to receive motions to that effect.
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West--Nepean, Lib.): I nominate Carolyn Bennett as co-chair of the committee.
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Jean-François Pagé): Are there any other motions?
I declare Madam Bennett duly elected.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Canadian Alliance): Madam Chair, I would like to nominate Betty Hinton to be vice-chair.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.)): And would somebody second that?
A voice: I second it.
A voice: This is all so civilized.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Seeing as there are no other nominations, you will send Betty our congratulations, will you?
Mr. Monte Solberg: I will do that.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): We need another vice-chair now, don't we? We don't? All right.
Á (1105)
The Joint Chair (Senator John G. Bryden (New Brunswick, Lib.)): Even though I represent the [Technical difficulty--Editor] house on the precinct, I'd like to have my comments, Chair, around this first meeting, but.... I think we would be able to discuss future business, if you'd like to put that to them.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Sure.
It's a great pleasure to actually come to this committee. We are stopping today the rumour that this is where people are banished to. Our whip, the truly wonderful Marlene Catterall, and I have had many conversations about a more active role for the Library of Parliament committee. I think it is a hugely important committee, if indeed we value the role of the Research Branch in terms of the heft that can come to parliamentarians and to parliamentary committees in view of our ongoing little tussle in terms of the bureaucracy, the executive, and Parliament. So the better and newer the information that parliamentarians are able to receive, I think the better we can be.
I think this committee has short-term issues--estimates and those types of things--but in the long term, I would like to know whether the resources are equivalent to the resources that are in other countries. When you talk to people....
I had a quick conversation with Donald Savoie, who explained that the Library of Congress, when he wants to speak to his counterpart in terms of an expert in public administration...two of the top ten Americans are in the Library of Congress. At Westminster, it's a bit buttressed by the Hansard Society, and Australia....
So I would like to know where we fit in terms of the world, in terms of the kinds of resources we put into the research capability of Parliament. I am wondering whether we could just ask the library to look at that in some way, or whether that is something they could just sketch for us, and then we could decide whether we need an independent look.
As Marlene knows, in my little disability committee we're doing a pilot on an online consultation with the recipients of CPP disability. We hope that people who have applied.... This is providing, even as a pilot, a tiny challenge for both the library and the House of Commons. In terms of the role of a library of parliament and a research branch in the information age, the question is, what should we be doing to move this next chapter in 2002? So I think those are some key little things.
In talking with the co-chair on the way over, I had thought that we should meet with Richard Paré and find out what he already knows, and what he doesn't know. I had just suggested that maybe it would be worth meeting with people like John English, who conducted the survey on the National Library and Public Archives and who is setting up a research institute on this, or somebody like John Chenier, or Richard Paré, or maybe even Donald Savoie. We could bring them to a meeting to try to place the Library of Parliament committee and the Library of Parliament research role, and the role for Canadian citizens, in context for new members of this committee, including me.
I'm thrilled that we have a reduced quorum. Obviously there are some things that could have some budget implications, but I think we can decide that later.
I think my friend, Mauril Bélanger, had an idea in terms of future business.
Is that correct?
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa--Vanier, Lib.): I always have ideas, Madam Chair--on command, if you wish.
I sought to join the committee for a very particular reason, and I hope that involvement will blossom into other interests. I was particularly offended by the way in which the Library of Parliament conducted itself in light of a lawsuit launched by a private company in Ottawa following a request for proposals that the library had issued.
The lack of response, or the perceived lack of response, from the library resulted in the matter going to the Canadian International Trade Tribunal, which ruled against the library. I thought it would be important for parliamentarians to be aware of that issue and how it should impact on future decisions of the library.
At the opportune moment, Madam Chair, I would welcome an opportunity for us, as members of this committee, to have a full briefing from those at the library responsible on this particular file.
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): Perhaps I can comment. That issue came up last year, I believe, and I think the committee deserves a report, a complete report, from the chief librarian. We should arrange to do that, because there's been no oversight by a committee like that of those sorts of things, and it's a valuable thing to do.
As well, if I can just carry on with what Carolyn said, I've suggested that at the same time we get that we could have the chief librarian, by whatever means, provide, on the basis of the notes that Carolyn just discussed with you, a briefing note for this committee, one that would say, “This is what we have”. That way we wouldn't be going out to try to find people to till ground that has already been cultivated. We would go on from there to follow the initiative my co-chair has indicated--that is, to see how we can make the library more vital, more useful to us, and how this committee can perhaps play a greater role than it has for quite some time. We do need to bring the management of the library in before us.
It would be my intention that, hopefully, if it's resources, we can be helpful in getting it for them. And if it's accountability, we're here to do that.
So that would be one of the suggestions, that at our next meeting, or as soon as it can be reasonably done, or to allow the man to prepare, we would have Mr. Paré come before us with a report on a memo that would be outlined by us, and then, in addition to that, he could comment on the issue that has been raised relating to the call for tenders or lack thereof.
But we really need other comments, because we're talking about future business. We would do at least that, and then maybe from there we would go further, because we'd have a idea where to go. On the other hand, if there are suggestions of what would be there for the longer term, we could use those as well.
Á (1110)
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): So we would ask the chief librarian to come prepared to answer questions around...or the briefing in terms of the news-gathering service contract. We would also ask him to prepare a paper, or have one prepared, comparing legislative information services, both library and research, among Canada, U.S., U.K., Australia, and France, just to see what it looks like. Is that....?
Ms. Marlene Catterall: I don't know if this committee has normally operated with a steering committee, but I think the idea of you and your co-chair working together to develop a work plan for this committee is extremely important for several reasons.
One, I and the government House leaders certainly intend to put a significant effort into enhancing the role of parliamentarians in the sense of parliamentarians having a more significant role as legislators. The other area in which we as members of Parliament have an extremely important role--this is a crucial role of Parliament, really--is the approval of money and the oversight of how that money is raised and spent.
To me, the library is the key resource we have to play a strong role as members of Parliament. As you mentioned, knowledge and understanding are the beginnings to having influence, and that's what we're all here for, I think, whether on one side of Parliament or the other.
The library is about to undergo a rebirth. In the next few years, probably three years minimum, the library will not be what it has been in the past, and there will be a disruption in its services. I think it's important that this committee keep a view on how the library continues to serve Parliament and parliamentarians. It's an opportune time to look forward to its future as well. After 100-plus years it's going to become, in many significant ways, a new place in its old location.
So if there's going to be a more proactive role for this committee, I'm delighted. If there is a steering committee...and if not, perhaps the two co-chairs and the vice-chairs could work together to develop a work plan for this committee, bring it back to us, and add whatever other members of the committee perhaps would like to see included. At any rate, I'm quite delighted to hear there is the intention to play a much more active role with respect to this.
The issue Mr. Bélanger has raised is an important one. Technology is obviously a key to information and to understanding issues. If the library has to move forward in that direction, it's important that we understand that it has the tools to do so, and to do so competently, and with the best results for Parliament for the dollars we spend.
So I'd like to suggest that you consider as well that as the new committee begins, we should probably have a look at the plans and priorities report of the library, of its performance report for last fall. That would put us in the best possible situation to have a look at its estimates, whether they are in fact meeting those objectives that have been set, and whether we agree with those objectives.
Á (1115)
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Just on your first point, I note that in meeting one, on May 10, 2001, there was a motion by Marcel Gagnon that:
| the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of six (6) members including the Co-Chairs, the Vice-Chair, and a representative of the Bloc Québécois, the Progressive Conservative Party and the New Democratic Party; and that the members of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be appointed after the usual consultations. |
I'll recognize Monsieur Gagnon.
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Gagnon (Champlain, BQ): In fact, I had tabled this motion. Now let me follow up on what we just heard.
I think that no one can deny that the Library is meant to provide information. We all certainly agree on that principle. But, to provide complete and useful information sessions for everyone, they must be in both official languages. Unfortunately, we see that some information sessions are only given in English and that the on-screen presentation is also in English. Would it be possible, not only to request, but to demand that this situation be rectified and that sessions be given in both official languages?
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Absolutely. Very well.
[English]
Would you serve on the sous-comité, sir? Oui?
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: Yes, all right, but there are some restrictions. It will depend on how frequently the meetings are held.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): We'll meet only three times a week.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: Three times a week, at 11 p.m.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Senator Oliver, I believe you were the Progressive Conservative member on the steering committee. Will you stand again as the Conservative?
Senator Donald Oliver (Nova Scotia, P.C.): I [Technical difficulty--Editor] that was a steering committee, but I would be pleased to.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Only in writing; a paper exercise.
I understand Wendy Lill was the NDP member, and we will check with her.
That would also have Betty Hinton and ourselves, so that would be great.
I just need to know--and this is sort of like the resource to study yourselves--has there not ever been a Library of Parliament researcher attached to this committee?
The Joint Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Denis Robert): There may be a conflict of interest--
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Denis Robert): --in the sense that he would be asked to write reports that may be critical of the library, which would put him in a very delicate position.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: On the other hand, it would be somewhat ironic if the Library of Parliament committee were to suggest that it had to go outside the library to get the [Inaudible—Editor].
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): Perhaps they would just give us a chunk of their budget and we would hire our own.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: We'll leave that to the steering committee.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Mauril.
[Translation]
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Madam Chair, we might as well note that there might be an inherent conflict of interests. I recognize that. Perhaps we could find some ways to solve this potential conflict of interests. We could, in fact, look for this outside.
I understand that several years ago, all the committees of the House and the Senate could avail themselves of the Parliamentary Centre. I think Mr. Dobell is the director. We might look into that possibility, or the committee might hire an independent service again. I would not object to that.
Further, during the studies that we will be doing, I hope that we will look at the administrative structure of the Library of Parliament, not its internal structure, but rather the ways in which we parliamentarians can influence the library's management.
For instance, if I am not mistaken, the Library reports to the Speaker of the House and to the Speaker of the Senate. On the other hand, we, the MPs—I do not know about the senators, I will have to check— cannot put questions to the House Speaker in the House. We can put questions, for instance, as I did once, to Ms. Catterall, who is the spokesperson for the Board of Internal Economy. But in fact, the Library does not report to the Board.
So the situation is confused, it's a kind of no man's land. We do not know who is accountable and whom to address. This was especially so during this committee's absence, as it did not sit at all last autumn. We were facing a situation where a parliamentary institution was not accountable to anyone. There is no one to whom we could put questions. I find this rather strange, rather awkward and cumbersome.
Thus, I think that the committee, which is now reconstituted, should perhaps deal with this issue. I think that if the Parliament Library is not at the disposal of parliamentarians, we have a serious problem. The power to run the Library should not be in the government's hands, as it seems to be in many cases, but in the hands of parliamentarians.
So, when the time is right, as I do not want to rush into things, I think that we should look into this whole matter again.
Á (1120)
[English]
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): Senator Poy.
Senator Vivienne Poy (Toronto, Lib.): I'm wondering whether there's any schedule--maybe you can answer--for the renovations and what kind of disruption of services we are to expect.
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Denis Robert) : I'm sorry, I don't have anything at this moment, but I will look into it and get back to you on that.
Senator Vivienne Poy: Thank you.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): That could be on our list of questions when the chief librarian comes; he could be prepared to answer questions in terms of his game plan for the renovations and the service to parliamentarians.
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden):
It's nice to have somebody who knows what they're talking about sitting on my right hand, but we do have an order of reference, and it does touch on some of the points that have been raised with regard to directing and controlling the Library of Parliament--that the committee
| be authorized to make recommendations to the Speaker of the Senate and to the Speaker of the House of Commons regarding the governance of the Library and the proper expenditure of moneys voted by Parliament for the purchase of books, maps or other articles to be deposited therein. |
Within that, I would believe, there is a multitude of sins we could investigate.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Mauril, did you hear, then, that there is a mandate letter to this committee to have some sort of oversight?
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: To have “some” sort; I'd like to know “what” sort.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett ): Well, we will circulate this to all members of the committee. Our role is to assist the Speaker, it's very clear here, so we will assume that role.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Let's leave that in the hands of the steering committee and let's see what our work plan is, or let's see what work plan we will agree to as a committee, and arising out of that see what research assistance we need.
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): If I may, we need money to do that. I mean, we're going to have to get a budget here pretty quickly. I believe we need someone attached to this committee, a researcher or someone else who does the stuff that ordinarily is done for a committee, someone besides the clerks. They do their jobs very well, but we need someone who will put things together and provide reports and summaries that we can present here. Even if we had an interim budget that we could get approved....
Á (1125)
Ms. Marlene Catterall: We don't have a budget at all?
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): Not that I'm aware of.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Then how are we going to travel to Australia to examine their library system?
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): On the way over here my co-chair was talking about Australia and what they do there, and I was wondering what all this bumph was about; she's looking for a trip to Australia.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: May I suggest, then, having assigned to you already a fair bit of work, that the co-chairs meet with the Speaker to organize for a budget for the committee?
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): Yes, we need....
If I may, co-chairing a committee--and with a steering committee that is made up of various parties-- I've come to understand that one of the most difficult things about joint committees is that everyone's schedules and everyone's agendas are different. Getting the necessary people in the same room to make the smallest decision is the biggest problem you have. And that will apply to the steering committee almost as much as it will to the larger committee.
So I hope it's possible--and I raise it here for my co-chair and myself, and with whoever else might be available--that to do preliminary work that ultimately has to be approved by the steering committee, and then ultimately by the full committee, we don't have to coordinate the agendas and the schedules of seven people to decide what we should be looking at.
A voice: There are conference calls as well.
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): Yes, but even that sometimes is difficult, as you know.
At any rate, we'll proceed on that basis to try to work out something that we can bring back. Otherwise, we'll be here this time next year still trying to see how to get everybody together.
Is there anything anyone else would like to add?
Yes.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: A question of privilege was raised at the official languages committee last Tuesday, and I'd like to raise it here as well: Can we get these chairs greased and oiled?
Voices: Oh, oh!
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: A little levity never hurts.
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): If we were in New Brunswick, I would probably have a can of WD-40 here.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: I will have one the next time we meet.
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): Exactly.
As I think you indicated, we have some work to do that might advance our cause a bit, and we'll try to get something done reasonably quickly and then have something to present, at least to a steering committee. From there.... If we can't get a steering committee together quickly, then I think we'll call another meeting of this committee.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Go ahead, sure. Particularly because the Senate and the House are meeting in such a patchwork way over the next period of time, we should go for the next time we're both around at the same time.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: The week of the eighteenth.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Maybe we can get the chief librarian come the week of the eighteenth to give us what he's got, do you think?
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): Yes.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): If he doesn't have the big comparative study done by then, obviously we would understand, but I think it would be a good idea to have him here.
Monsieur.
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Let me just tell you what I was about to say, a bit too soon, just now. I do not know whether this is the time so say it. When we decide to meet again, I'd like you to know that I have some constraints. Now, as I want to take part in the work, I would have to know the proposed meeting times in advance and I need to have some choice as to the dates and times of meetings. As you know, there is a lot of work to do. Personally, I am busy from 9 a.m. to 11 a.m., but I can be available at 3:30 p.m., but never on Mondays or Fridays. I just want to let you know that.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Monday at 9 a.m.?
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: No, neither Mondays nor Fridays. Thus, we need to have some choice. Thank you.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): A little menu.
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): There is one thing that has been taken care of, and that is we do have an order in the Senate that the people on that committee can meet when the Senate is sitting. Normally if...our committees are not permitted to sit, but with this one we can. So we can do that.
Á (1130)
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Do you need a motion for what constitutes a quorum of the steering committee? Because it is very difficult, you're right, to get us all together when it's a joint committee.
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): If that would be possible, it would be very helpful.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): The reduced quorum, I understand, for this committee is seven, and we have a steering committee of six, so....
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): If we do it with three, the co-chairs and the vice-chair, that would be...and somebody representing the official opposition, right?
A voice: On a steering committee the quorum would be any three.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: If there are three there, and the Senate and two other parties, the government and official opposition, are represented, the committee could proceed. This full committee would have to approve their work anyway.
Would that be okay?
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): I think what's functioned before, according to the clerk, is that the co-chairs and one other member of the steering committee would form a quorum, so that you could move it. Then it has to come here anyway, or come to the full steering committee.
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: The quorum has already been decided. I have it here, on page 2. It takes seven persons.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Yes, this is meant for this committee, but as for the steering committee...
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: Very well! All right.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: ...three persons.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): And one of the things we will ask the Library to do is to bring its annual report and just review that. That will give us a touchstone, I think, to ask questions and so on.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: If we're going to meet once a week, might I suggest, in all seriousness, that Thursday afternoon would be a time when you would find there would be few conflicts?
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): Except with my flight home.
I would doubt very much, with all the best intentions, the committee is going to go from meeting once every two years to meeting once a week. I think our ambition is going to have to be smaller than that. Probably we can make it work once every third week or something like that, until we get....
Senator Vivienne Poy: It might not be necessary to meet that frequently as long as we get the work done in between times.
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): That's right.
One of us is going to have to terminate this meeting.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Go ahead.
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): If there is no further business--
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): So the steering committee will meet, but if possible we would meet either the week of the eighteenth or the week of the twenty-fifth, when both Houses are sitting, to hear the chief librarian. Is that...?
Ms. Marlene Catterall: I wouldn't get involved in the long-term study, Carolyn, right now. I think we need to get grounded in the basics and the plans and priorities report.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Yes.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Have all the members of the committee been advised of the place and time of the steering committee meeting?
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Yes. We have a plan.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger : Thank you.
The Joint Chair (Senator John Bryden): The meeting is adjourned.